3 ms·

Reading comments like this is like watching an impaired pedestrian about to be run over by an approaching bus. You yell, you wave your arms, but they aren't pa

Reading comments like this is like watching an impaired pedestrian about to be run over by an approaching bus. You yell, you wave your arms, but they aren't paying attention. There's no way to warn them, so all you can do is... watch.

skydhash 5mo ago
> There's no way to warn them, so all you can do is... watch …and then wake up from the nightmare wishing the stress from the job is lower. I can only laugh that some people truly believe that developers, one of the most ardent group at automating the tedious part of their job, would refuse to use an effective tool. You only need to look at the open source world to see people litterally scratching their own hitch everywhere.
- qsera 5mo ago
  >would refuse to use an effective tool. No one said I don't use LLMs. I use LLMs daily...for search. That is its best use. That is my own judgement.
- voidUpdate 5mo ago
  What if I don't want to automate away the part of my job that I actually like doing? What if, in my job as a programmer, I actually want to do programming?
  - qsera 5mo ago
    People who demand programmers start using LLMs in their work don't understand that it is essentially like asking programmers to start doing accounting or HR. Something fundamentally different from what they love to do..
    - voidUpdate 5mo ago
      Theyre asking programmers to become managers, asking another entity to do the work for them and check in every now and again to see how it's going
      - qsera 5mo ago
        Actually they are asking programmers to become managers in addition to programmers. Because when the LLMs stops working, they are expected to take over. So I think programmers who are asked to use LLMs should demand their job descriptions to be changed to that of managers, and should ever deny responsibility if the LLM stops to make progress. Thus let the organization be responsible to actually find a version of AI that works, just like how it was responsible to find competent programmers to work under the managers before.
  - maybe_pablo 5mo ago
    That’s fair. I do think, however, that the software industry may become a bit like the clothing industry: there will still be an artisanal market for people who want human-made software, but to be honest I wouldn’t expect it to remain the mainstream option.
    - voidUpdate 5mo ago
      Well I can say for sure I'd rather wear long lasting, tested (second hand), human made clothing rather than Shein Slop
      - maybe_pablo 5mo ago
        Sure, and I don’t disagree, but goods and services still need to scale to billions of people. Most people aren’t going to start knitting their own clothes, or have the time to, just like most companies probably won’t rely on fully hand-written software if cheaper automated alternatives are good enough. What you want or enjoy is one thing; the reality of society is another.
        qsera 5mo ago
        >won’t rely on fully hand-written software if cheaper automated alternatives are good enough. By this logic, all non-outsourced development should be dead already.
weakfish 5mo ago
Reading comments like this is like watching someone who is absolutely convinced that they have a crystal ball in their lap when at best they have a foggy piece of plastic. You could be right you could be wrong, but don’t act like you have such certainty.
- CamperBob2 5mo ago
  The foggy piece of plastic writes better code and better text than I do. I don't know about you, but that makes me sit up and stop waving my hands dismissively. As for "certainty," that's a luxury nobody has.
  - weakfish 5mo ago
    I really don't want to sound like an asshole, but I refuse the notion that an agent writes better code / prose than I do and I am concerned for anyone who does think that. Is it _faster_? sure! That is NOT better. Before you ask, I write code w/ agents daily, I find it useful, but it's not better than I am purely on quality.
    - CamperBob2 5mo ago
      What I've been seeing lately with Opus 4.7 under Claude Code is that it finds more bugs in my code than I find in its code. That, to me, makes it hard to argue that I am "better" than it is. Certainly Claude/Codex's knowledge of algorithms and data structures is leagues ahead of any human programmer alive. Only its capacity for creating new ones on demand is weaker. Recent results from the mathematics field suggest that's a temporary state of affairs. As far as prose goes, my best writing is indeed better than the best I've seen from LLMs. But that's a matter of opinion (mine.) On average the clanker wins, especially if conditioned to avoid LLM-isms. The truth is that the models are getting better in both areas, while I'm not. Which IMHO is freaking awesome, not a reason to burn it all down.
      - weakfish 5mo ago
        I think it's pretty good at review and finding bugs, but IME it's really not great at designing solutions to non-trivial problems, which IME is the part of the job that makes me "good" at it. YMMV

skydhash 5mo ago

> There's no way to warn them, so all you can do is... watch …and then wake up from the nightmare wishing the stress from the job is lower. I can only laugh that some people truly believe that developers, one of the most ardent group at automating the tedious part of their job, would refuse to use an effective tool. You only need to look at the open source world to see people litterally scratching their own hitch everywhere.

qsera 5mo ago
>would refuse to use an effective tool. No one said I don't use LLMs. I use LLMs daily...for search. That is its best use. That is my own judgement.
voidUpdate 5mo ago
What if I don't want to automate away the part of my job that I actually like doing? What if, in my job as a programmer, I actually want to do programming?
- qsera 5mo ago
  People who demand programmers start using LLMs in their work don't understand that it is essentially like asking programmers to start doing accounting or HR. Something fundamentally different from what they love to do..
  - voidUpdate 5mo ago
    Theyre asking programmers to become managers, asking another entity to do the work for them and check in every now and again to see how it's going
    - qsera 5mo ago
      Actually they are asking programmers to become managers in addition to programmers. Because when the LLMs stops working, they are expected to take over. So I think programmers who are asked to use LLMs should demand their job descriptions to be changed to that of managers, and should ever deny responsibility if the LLM stops to make progress. Thus let the organization be responsible to actually find a version of AI that works, just like how it was responsible to find competent programmers to work under the managers before.
- maybe_pablo 5mo ago
  That’s fair. I do think, however, that the software industry may become a bit like the clothing industry: there will still be an artisanal market for people who want human-made software, but to be honest I wouldn’t expect it to remain the mainstream option.
  - voidUpdate 5mo ago
    Well I can say for sure I'd rather wear long lasting, tested (second hand), human made clothing rather than Shein Slop
    - maybe_pablo 5mo ago
      Sure, and I don’t disagree, but goods and services still need to scale to billions of people. Most people aren’t going to start knitting their own clothes, or have the time to, just like most companies probably won’t rely on fully hand-written software if cheaper automated alternatives are good enough. What you want or enjoy is one thing; the reality of society is another.
      - qsera 5mo ago
        >won’t rely on fully hand-written software if cheaper automated alternatives are good enough. By this logic, all non-outsourced development should be dead already.

weakfish 5mo ago

Reading comments like this is like watching someone who is absolutely convinced that they have a crystal ball in their lap when at best they have a foggy piece of plastic. You could be right you could be wrong, but don’t act like you have such certainty.

CamperBob2 5mo ago
The foggy piece of plastic writes better code and better text than I do. I don't know about you, but that makes me sit up and stop waving my hands dismissively. As for "certainty," that's a luxury nobody has.
- weakfish 5mo ago
  I really don't want to sound like an asshole, but I refuse the notion that an agent writes better code / prose than I do and I am concerned for anyone who does think that. Is it _faster_? sure! That is NOT better. Before you ask, I write code w/ agents daily, I find it useful, but it's not better than I am purely on quality.
  - CamperBob2 5mo ago
    What I've been seeing lately with Opus 4.7 under Claude Code is that it finds more bugs in my code than I find in its code. That, to me, makes it hard to argue that I am "better" than it is. Certainly Claude/Codex's knowledge of algorithms and data structures is leagues ahead of any human programmer alive. Only its capacity for creating new ones on demand is weaker. Recent results from the mathematics field suggest that's a temporary state of affairs. As far as prose goes, my best writing is indeed better than the best I've seen from LLMs. But that's a matter of opinion (mine.) On average the clanker wins, especially if conditioned to avoid LLM-isms. The truth is that the models are getting better in both areas, while I'm not. Which IMHO is freaking awesome, not a reason to burn it all down.
    - weakfish 5mo ago
      I think it's pretty good at review and finding bugs, but IME it's really not great at designing solutions to non-trivial problems, which IME is the part of the job that makes me "good" at it. YMMV