6 ms·

Don't Blame H-1B Workers for Woes

28 points by peter123 18y ago

kyochan 18y ago
I am for the elimination of H-1B visas only if it means an even more lenient immigration policy. Free trade means the free movement of capital AND labor.
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  Enjoy having your standard of living averaged with the Third World. The best remedy for Libertarianism is experiencing the consequences personally.
  - sh1mmer 18y ago
    Much of the incoming migrant workers are from places like Britain, or India. These people have excellent educations. It seems nuts that the U.S sets hard limits on such people entering the country. I struggle to see how a country who outsource a significant part of their manufacturing to the far east could have too many knowledge workers.
    - deleted 18y ago
      [deleted]
  - rglullis 18y ago
    Canada and Australia have pretty open immigration policies and their standard of living is higher than in the US.
    - asciilifeform 18y ago
      How many Canadian or Australian H1Bs have you met?
      - comatose_kid 18y ago
        Hundreds. My wife and I are both Canadians who started out with H1-Bs.
      - potatolicious 18y ago
        My parents were both immigrants who came to Canada on "skilled labour immigration" policies. We enjoy pay that's well above the Canadian average (read: we're not working for pennies), and within my family we have 2 masters degrees, 3 undergrads, and 1 soon-to-be PhD. Overall I think we have contributed to raising the Canadian standard of living, instead of detracting from it, and I wish that the US has the foresight to implement these policies - as a startup-minded individual I'd rather be there than here.
    - pfedor 18y ago
      I would also mention Switzerland. I met plenty of people in Google's Zurich office who didn't get an American visa or were waiting for an American visa. For an engineer who has a job offer, getting a work permit in Switzerland is a few days process. I don't even remember the names of forms and visas involved, unlike "H-1B" or "L-1B" or "Adjustment Of Status" and the rest of the crap half of the engineers on the planet are still having nightmares about. And, at the risk of stating the obvious, Switzerland doesn't look exactly like a third world country. Way less so then, say, East Palo Alto (just a random example.)
      - wallflower 18y ago
        On the flip side, Switzerland is one of the hardest countries to earn citizenship in. 10 years continuous residency requirement!
        pfedor 18y ago
        True. I knew people who were born in Switzerland and lived in Switzerland their whole lives, and still had Spanish passports only.
    - anamax 18y ago
      > Canada and Australia have pretty open immigration policies and their standard of living is higher than in the US. Which direction is net-migration? I don't know the answer, but I trust that statistic more than any "causal"/"{wherever} is better because of the {factor number}" argument. Why? Because it's easy to find a factor that is better for any destination but feet tell the truth.
  - ewanmcteagle 18y ago
    How is this supported by history? When immigration was freer were living standards not rising in many countries and not rising in others, instead of averaging? It is not true that the only way to increase wealth is to starve others of resources so you can charge higher prices for goods or services. Scarcity is a form of poverty for society.
  - kyochan 18y ago
    My standard of living is doing just fine because I've adapted by improving and expanding my skillset and become one step ahead of outsourced and H-1B workers in my field. Restricting foreign competition for jobs only foster complacency and increase the likelihood of my job being outsourced. You could say my Libertarianism is malignant.
- senthil_rajasek 18y ago
  Labor is a unique resource, I would not treat it the same way I would treat capital or any other resource especially since it is tied closely to social structures.
- mynameishere 18y ago
  "Labor" consists of human beings which bring a whole complex of externalities that capital does not. Not one policymaker (Not one) is effected by these externalities. And most of us UMC technocrats aren't either.
tallanvor 18y ago
It's understandable (if misguided) that people think that turning away foreign workers will help matters significantly in this country, but it's definitely not the answer. America does need to make sure that any foreign workers being brought into the country are being paid prevailing wages, and are not being used to help cut costs. Of course, since I'm an American working overseas, I suppose it would be a bit hypocritical of me to support further limits on foreigners working in the States! I would like to see agreements between the U.S., Canada, and the EU to help make it easier for their respective citizens to work in other countries (obviously the EU has already done this within their member states). --That would provide more options to Americans as well as to others.
tptacek 18y ago
Alternate explanation, which would refute the thesis of this article: H1-B workers are disproportionately likely to work for companies with aggressive IP processes, like IBM and Microsoft, because those companies are also aggressive about recruiting H1-B workers.
- old-gregg 18y ago
  I believe most of those are patents filed by US graduate/PhD students of foreign origin working for big corporations either via H1b or using their student visas. These are the individuals we want to keep. The "dark side" of H1b program is various ethnic sweatshops often filled with mediocre talent unable to find work anywhere else. I have known a person in Boston area who, along with 4 roommates, lived in his "owners" (H1b sponsor) basement where they were looking for contracts for themselves, so the sponsor could sell them later for a percentage. This crowd doesn't file patents. Another, less evil "H1b business" is what many 3rd grade no-name universities do: they bring people from all over the world using student visas, give them loans, put them through 6-8 month Java crash-course, after which students are supposed to find themselves H1b employment. When they do, they have to pay $10-30K to their "school" while completing their "education" online (the requirement that lets these institutions maintain their legal university status). I suspect that these shady H1b sponsors take up as much as half of all H1b visas issued to programmers year after year. As I said, big companies rarely bring people from overseas, they like to hire the best foreign graduates from good schools instead, where H1b works as a temporary bridge between a student visa and a green card, and that was the original idea behind it, IIRC.
- wheels 18y ago
  Those companies are also less likely to die or do massive layoffs, which is part of The Fear of being on a temporary work visa. Having an international HR department works wonders too.
coolnewtoy 18y ago
"Kerr and Lincoln built algorithms that recognize likely foreign names on U.S. patent applications." This doesn't seem very definitive to me.
- ja2ke 18y ago
  Aside from that one patent filed by Crazy Horse, it came up 100%. Crazy.
huherto 18y ago
The U.S. like any country, needs to look for ways of attracting talent. Sadly, migrating to the U.S. is very hard and it can take many years. I know people who have been waiting for more than 10 years. You cannot make any life plans with that type of waiting.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
geebee 18y ago
What do you guys think of using patent applications as a measure of innovation? This seems common among researchers, and I can see why - it's easy to measure patents, whereas it's hard to track non-patented types of innovation (such as contributions to open source). But is this a case of looking for your keys under the lamp post because that's where the light is brightest?
- smanek 18y ago
  I don't think that patents are a particularly good proxy for innovation - I've never even tried to get patents for a lot of the most cutting-edge stuff I've worked on (that would, in my lay opinion, be worthy of being granted a patent). And we all know the anecdotes of companies that patent every trivial modification they implement on standard algorithms or data structures. On the other hand, I do know at least one scientist who checks out all the patents granted to a competing lab to keep tabs on the sort of research they do. He claims that, in our field, patents are a far better indicator of the amount of effort a lab is expending on a topic than papers published or press releases put out. shrugs
GeneralMaximus 18y ago
The argument that H1-B workers are bad for America is, IMO, completely irrational. Whoever is in support of this argument is implying that people who are smart enough to get jobs in some of the top corporations[1] in America, or have made it to one of the top American universites, are bad for the country. I'll repeat that for effect: smart people are bad for America. WTF? Let's look at the situation from my POV, just for laughs. I'm an Indian. I've been playing with technology since I was 13. I've spent hundereds of hours of my life learning how to program and cooking up small scripts and apps for simple tasks. I've spent sleepless nights trying to get a Linux install working. I've ignored school, college and exams because I wanted to be the first one to solve some programming puzzle online. Why? Because I'm passionate about programming. I want get a job doing smart stuff for a smart employer[2], and I don't expect to get that job in India. The argument that immigrants are hurting America implies that America should just show the finger to me and give that smart job to someone who doesn't really enjoy doing it[3] just because that guy was born in America and I was born in India. "" Enjoy having your standard of living averaged with the Third World. "" Reading that statement just makes me sad. [1] : I mean a really good job at, say, Google. Nobody leaves India thinking, "I'm going to found a Web 2.0 startup in America.". [2] : ... or start up a company. Not sure about how friendly India is to startups compared to America. There have certainly been many tech startups sprouting up in India in the past few years, but what they had to do to get where they are is still unclear. [3] : This is not to imply that Americans are stupid. This is just a hypothetical situation.
- dmolnar 18y ago
  Responding to your footnote [2], it would be interesting to hear what obstacles are in the way of doing a start-up in India. Are they the kind of things that can be worked around once and then the effort amortized over multiple start-up companies? If so, maybe there is an opportunity for something like YC in India that guides early stage people through the hoops required to start their own companies.
  - braindead_in 18y ago
    They are YC clones coming up all over here. Some of them invest, some dont. But none of them have anybody's of PG's stature behind them. So dunno whether any of them will ever succeed. IMHO, incubators are a bit too early for the Indian ecosystem. Is very immature right now. Especially for first time entrepreneurs. Severe lack of talent and mentorship, angels are few and far between, Series A or further rounds, if you make it that far, happen at low valuations and successful exits are very rare. Add to that the very low internet penetration rate here. So focusing on the Indian market is a non starter. If you are targeting the global market, then its best to take advantage of the valley ecosystem. Eventually you'll have to have an office there if you want to succeed.
kailashbadu 18y ago
What beats me is why so many Americans are against the H1B while barely anyone bats an eyelid at the Diversity Visas. I assume it would make more sense for the US to cut down randomly allotted Diversity Visas and lift the bar on H1B . Or perhaps put in place the friendlier High-skilled Immigration policies. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to bring in an expert than some Tom, Dick, and Harry.
known 18y ago
Most of the H1B workers have colluded with sponsoring companies and the clients. And H1B workers are not creating new jobs in America.
imasr 18y ago
I don't think this is a matter of numbers, but about what America would like for its future. A trip to Ellis Island may help remind the bases of a nation built upon immigration.

28 points by peter123 18y ago

I am for the elimination of H-1B visas only if it means an even more lenient immigration policy. Free trade means the free movement of capital AND labor.

asciilifeform 18y ago
Enjoy having your standard of living averaged with the Third World. The best remedy for Libertarianism is experiencing the consequences personally.
- sh1mmer 18y ago
  Much of the incoming migrant workers are from places like Britain, or India. These people have excellent educations. It seems nuts that the U.S sets hard limits on such people entering the country. I struggle to see how a country who outsource a significant part of their manufacturing to the far east could have too many knowledge workers.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
- rglullis 18y ago
  Canada and Australia have pretty open immigration policies and their standard of living is higher than in the US.
  - asciilifeform 18y ago
    How many Canadian or Australian H1Bs have you met?
    - comatose_kid 18y ago
      Hundreds. My wife and I are both Canadians who started out with H1-Bs.
    - potatolicious 18y ago
      My parents were both immigrants who came to Canada on "skilled labour immigration" policies. We enjoy pay that's well above the Canadian average (read: we're not working for pennies), and within my family we have 2 masters degrees, 3 undergrads, and 1 soon-to-be PhD. Overall I think we have contributed to raising the Canadian standard of living, instead of detracting from it, and I wish that the US has the foresight to implement these policies - as a startup-minded individual I'd rather be there than here.
  - pfedor 18y ago
    I would also mention Switzerland. I met plenty of people in Google's Zurich office who didn't get an American visa or were waiting for an American visa. For an engineer who has a job offer, getting a work permit in Switzerland is a few days process. I don't even remember the names of forms and visas involved, unlike "H-1B" or "L-1B" or "Adjustment Of Status" and the rest of the crap half of the engineers on the planet are still having nightmares about. And, at the risk of stating the obvious, Switzerland doesn't look exactly like a third world country. Way less so then, say, East Palo Alto (just a random example.)
    - wallflower 18y ago
      On the flip side, Switzerland is one of the hardest countries to earn citizenship in. 10 years continuous residency requirement!
      - pfedor 18y ago
        True. I knew people who were born in Switzerland and lived in Switzerland their whole lives, and still had Spanish passports only.
  - anamax 18y ago
    > Canada and Australia have pretty open immigration policies and their standard of living is higher than in the US. Which direction is net-migration? I don't know the answer, but I trust that statistic more than any "causal"/"{wherever} is better because of the {factor number}" argument. Why? Because it's easy to find a factor that is better for any destination but feet tell the truth.
- ewanmcteagle 18y ago
  How is this supported by history? When immigration was freer were living standards not rising in many countries and not rising in others, instead of averaging? It is not true that the only way to increase wealth is to starve others of resources so you can charge higher prices for goods or services. Scarcity is a form of poverty for society.
- kyochan 18y ago
  My standard of living is doing just fine because I've adapted by improving and expanding my skillset and become one step ahead of outsourced and H-1B workers in my field. Restricting foreign competition for jobs only foster complacency and increase the likelihood of my job being outsourced. You could say my Libertarianism is malignant.
senthil_rajasek 18y ago
Labor is a unique resource, I would not treat it the same way I would treat capital or any other resource especially since it is tied closely to social structures.
mynameishere 18y ago
"Labor" consists of human beings which bring a whole complex of externalities that capital does not. Not one policymaker (Not one) is effected by these externalities. And most of us UMC technocrats aren't either.

tallanvor 18y ago

It's understandable (if misguided) that people think that turning away foreign workers will help matters significantly in this country, but it's definitely not the answer. America does need to make sure that any foreign workers being brought into the country are being paid prevailing wages, and are not being used to help cut costs. Of course, since I'm an American working overseas, I suppose it would be a bit hypocritical of me to support further limits on foreigners working in the States! I would like to see agreements between the U.S., Canada, and the EU to help make it easier for their respective citizens to work in other countries (obviously the EU has already done this within their member states). --That would provide more options to Americans as well as to others.

tptacek 18y ago

Alternate explanation, which would refute the thesis of this article: H1-B workers are disproportionately likely to work for companies with aggressive IP processes, like IBM and Microsoft, because those companies are also aggressive about recruiting H1-B workers.

old-gregg 18y ago
I believe most of those are patents filed by US graduate/PhD students of foreign origin working for big corporations either via H1b or using their student visas. These are the individuals we want to keep. The "dark side" of H1b program is various ethnic sweatshops often filled with mediocre talent unable to find work anywhere else. I have known a person in Boston area who, along with 4 roommates, lived in his "owners" (H1b sponsor) basement where they were looking for contracts for themselves, so the sponsor could sell them later for a percentage. This crowd doesn't file patents. Another, less evil "H1b business" is what many 3rd grade no-name universities do: they bring people from all over the world using student visas, give them loans, put them through 6-8 month Java crash-course, after which students are supposed to find themselves H1b employment. When they do, they have to pay $10-30K to their "school" while completing their "education" online (the requirement that lets these institutions maintain their legal university status). I suspect that these shady H1b sponsors take up as much as half of all H1b visas issued to programmers year after year. As I said, big companies rarely bring people from overseas, they like to hire the best foreign graduates from good schools instead, where H1b works as a temporary bridge between a student visa and a green card, and that was the original idea behind it, IIRC.
wheels 18y ago
Those companies are also less likely to die or do massive layoffs, which is part of The Fear of being on a temporary work visa. Having an international HR department works wonders too.

coolnewtoy 18y ago

"Kerr and Lincoln built algorithms that recognize likely foreign names on U.S. patent applications." This doesn't seem very definitive to me.

ja2ke 18y ago
Aside from that one patent filed by Crazy Horse, it came up 100%. Crazy.

huherto 18y ago

The U.S. like any country, needs to look for ways of attracting talent. Sadly, migrating to the U.S. is very hard and it can take many years. I know people who have been waiting for more than 10 years. You cannot make any life plans with that type of waiting.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

geebee 18y ago

What do you guys think of using patent applications as a measure of innovation? This seems common among researchers, and I can see why - it's easy to measure patents, whereas it's hard to track non-patented types of innovation (such as contributions to open source). But is this a case of looking for your keys under the lamp post because that's where the light is brightest?

smanek 18y ago
I don't think that patents are a particularly good proxy for innovation - I've never even tried to get patents for a lot of the most cutting-edge stuff I've worked on (that would, in my lay opinion, be worthy of being granted a patent). And we all know the anecdotes of companies that patent every trivial modification they implement on standard algorithms or data structures. On the other hand, I do know at least one scientist who checks out all the patents granted to a competing lab to keep tabs on the sort of research they do. He claims that, in our field, patents are a far better indicator of the amount of effort a lab is expending on a topic than papers published or press releases put out. shrugs

GeneralMaximus 18y ago

The argument that H1-B workers are bad for America is, IMO, completely irrational. Whoever is in support of this argument is implying that people who are smart enough to get jobs in some of the top corporations[1] in America, or have made it to one of the top American universites, are bad for the country. I'll repeat that for effect: smart people are bad for America. WTF? Let's look at the situation from my POV, just for laughs. I'm an Indian. I've been playing with technology since I was 13. I've spent hundereds of hours of my life learning how to program and cooking up small scripts and apps for simple tasks. I've spent sleepless nights trying to get a Linux install working. I've ignored school, college and exams because I wanted to be the first one to solve some programming puzzle online. Why? Because I'm passionate about programming. I want get a job doing smart stuff for a smart employer[2], and I don't expect to get that job in India. The argument that immigrants are hurting America implies that America should just show the finger to me and give that smart job to someone who doesn't really enjoy doing it[3] just because that guy was born in America and I was born in India. "" Enjoy having your standard of living averaged with the Third World. "" Reading that statement just makes me sad. [1] : I mean a really good job at, say, Google. Nobody leaves India thinking, "I'm going to found a Web 2.0 startup in America.". [2] : ... or start up a company. Not sure about how friendly India is to startups compared to America. There have certainly been many tech startups sprouting up in India in the past few years, but what they had to do to get where they are is still unclear. [3] : This is not to imply that Americans are stupid. This is just a hypothetical situation.

dmolnar 18y ago
Responding to your footnote [2], it would be interesting to hear what obstacles are in the way of doing a start-up in India. Are they the kind of things that can be worked around once and then the effort amortized over multiple start-up companies? If so, maybe there is an opportunity for something like YC in India that guides early stage people through the hoops required to start their own companies.
- braindead_in 18y ago
  They are YC clones coming up all over here. Some of them invest, some dont. But none of them have anybody's of PG's stature behind them. So dunno whether any of them will ever succeed. IMHO, incubators are a bit too early for the Indian ecosystem. Is very immature right now. Especially for first time entrepreneurs. Severe lack of talent and mentorship, angels are few and far between, Series A or further rounds, if you make it that far, happen at low valuations and successful exits are very rare. Add to that the very low internet penetration rate here. So focusing on the Indian market is a non starter. If you are targeting the global market, then its best to take advantage of the valley ecosystem. Eventually you'll have to have an office there if you want to succeed.

kailashbadu 18y ago

What beats me is why so many Americans are against the H1B while barely anyone bats an eyelid at the Diversity Visas. I assume it would make more sense for the US to cut down randomly allotted Diversity Visas and lift the bar on H1B . Or perhaps put in place the friendlier High-skilled Immigration policies. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to bring in an expert than some Tom, Dick, and Harry.

known 18y ago

Most of the H1B workers have colluded with sponsoring companies and the clients. And H1B workers are not creating new jobs in America.

imasr 18y ago

I don't think this is a matter of numbers, but about what America would like for its future. A trip to Ellis Island may help remind the bases of a nation built upon immigration.