3 ms·

A few years ago, the probability of such shit reaching the Hacker News home page was near zero, because regardless of the merits, here was not full of normies t

by antirez 4mo ago

A few years ago, the probability of such shit reaching the Hacker News home page was near zero, because regardless of the merits, here was not full of normies that could not understand when a behavior is unacceptable (I'm referring to the violence of the language of the issue). And now, here we are, surrounded by people that can't tell the most obvious things.

cafebabbe 4mo ago
Love that your comment is ambiguous enough to apply to both sides here :)
- antirez 4mo ago
  Nope my comment is against the folks that are criticizing rsync author. Editing the comment to make it more clear, thanks.
weiliddat 4mo ago
Maybe I'm getting too skeptical. I have a feeling increasingly many of the comments on HN and the GitHub issue are just bots ragebaiting other people (incl. the maintainer)...
- rf15 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - weiliddat 4mo ago
    I'm not sure how to interpret your comment. It could be - a response to my comment saying that I am "illiterate" and cannot differentiate LLM output vs actual human comments (in that case I'm not sure what you're adding to the discussion here beyond a personal attack) - a general comment saying it's getting harder for people in a position similar to us (i.e. tech / tech-adjacent who interact a lot with others who write with LLM assistance or via LLMs) to differentiate human/AI output. I'll assume good faith and you mean the second. In that case maybe you can explain the "fundamental problem" you're referring to?
    - rf15 4mo ago
      It was a general comment. Sorry for being unclear. I'm very bothered by hearing this exact thing a lot lately. It's something I'm racking my brains over, how some people can tell certain things and intentions apart and others cannot - and how that set is different for everyone, and how this "flaw" is currently causing a lot of trouble because we, collectively, are not very well practiced in detecting this kind of thing. I don't think the internet is dead just yet, because I don't think anybody truly has the concrete intention to destroy all knowledge.
      - weiliddat 4mo ago
        No harm done, glad I clarified. I'm generally an optimistic person and very trusting of others. I'd say I'm also a pretty good reader of intentions / listener based on people who are my friends / worked with me (anecdotal of course, take it how you will). However, some of the comments in the GitHub issue... I can only assume the worst of intentions to ruin any/all motivation of the maintainer. Given we've seen social engineering and other attacks on other open source projects with increasing frequency, I can only assume that there are ulterior motives in such comments. I cannot otherwise see how those comments would be constructive towards the maintainer or the other participants in the issue.
latexr 4mo ago
I think you’re looking at it through rose-coloured glasses. Controversial issues like this which fall outside regular bug reporting have always been submitted and became popular on HN. And developers are capable of such language, we have a reputation for being rude and even used to have a poster boy for it. Blaming this on “normies” (itself typically a dismissive word) is ignoring the problem has always been there and our responsibility in it.
bakugo 4mo ago
Similarly, a few years ago, I would've never expected "my magic code generation machine is doing all my work for me now, I don't even bother looking at what it does anymore!" to reach the Hacker News home page on a regular basis, either, yet here we are. Irrational actions lead to irrational reactions.
- pacifika 4mo ago
  That’s not how LLMs are used by experienced engineers.
  - izacus 4mo ago
    And yet this is exactly how it was used for rsync which caused the outrage you're all complaining about. You're being dishonest with what you wrote when the proof is literally in this article.
    - RugnirViking 4mo ago
      its not an article, its a github issue. There is no proof, someone posted a screenshot of another person on twitter complaining about a vague bug they experienced. It's certainly not clear the maintainer used an llm in the way described (how would you know unless they told you?). Its not even clear what issues there are specifically, or whether they were caused by ai usage.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
roxolotl 4mo ago
Describing the issue as “violent” is wild. Reading through a bit, it’s massive, it’s clear no one involved has the moral high ground here. The polite response is to close the issue if you believe it’s genuinely off topic. Still not quite sure what you mean by obvious because to me “Stop. You know nothing. You have shipped 0 features by hand. No one has ever depended on your code.” Is much more violent than “please do not vibe fuckup this software”.
- craigmart 4mo ago
  The "Stop. You know nothing." comment was apparently a reference to this tweet. https://x.com/CodyRhodes/status/980680154098757632 https://x.com/CodyRhodes/status/980680154098757632 Embarassing nonetheless
  - margalabargala 4mo ago
    That doesn't make it any better. At all.
  - dormento 4mo ago
    That's some very embarassing american (I guess) defaultism.
themgt 4mo ago
Opening an issue consisting only of some twitter clone screenshot with some "literally who" who found a bug called "Please Do Not Vibe Fuck Up This Software" ain't it. That's not a way to tell a maintainer that you disagree with the direction they're taking. This issue is entirely useless. A "fucked up vibe coded" bug report would have been better. This nailed it. None of the bug reports even attempt to document the claimed "--compare-dest=" regression. I did ctrl-f and I didn't even see anyone mention "compare-dest" again? The people posting worthless AI rage comments could have asked Opus 4.8 to spin up rysnc 3.4.3 vs. 3.4.1, thoroughly document the regression and git bisect the commit that broke it and filed a 1000x more professional and useful bug report. If you want society to value your human work more than AI work, try to avoid acting like a uniquely human bozo.
- eudamoniac 4mo ago
  They're not mad about the bug, they're mad about the cause of the bug. This is like city council starts flinging stones with a trebuchet into streets, and you're expected to calmly file pothole reports instead of complaining about the trebuchet.
  - soerxpso 4mo ago
    Bugs exist in human code too. The AI derangement crowd pounces on any small bug as evidence that AI is a trebuchet, and thinks that if only we didn't use AI there would never be any bugs (like five years ago when all software was perfect, was not being enshittified, and had 0 bugs).
    - bakugo 4mo ago
      > Bugs exist in human code too. These bugs did not exist in human code. They were introduced by AI. > thinks that if only we didn't use AI there would never be any bugs Strawman. These bugs would not exist if not introduced by AI.
      - Sacho 4mo ago
mhitza 4mo ago
The way Code of Conducts where being pushed on some open source projects in the past, there was enough vitriol and cross-platform harassment. This one is "tamer", a bit, because the hate goes towards the AI usage, not the person.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
ofjcihen 4mo ago
You could also say that about using dismissive language like “normies”. Regarding it reaching the front page: is it possible that’s because others feel the same way about a software they might use daily for important work? Trite as the gh issue is and surely this is thankless work, the bottom line and reality is that rsync is a cornerstone for a lot of sensitive pipelines.
- stevenally 4mo ago
  "Trite as the gh issue is and surely this is thankless work, the bottom line and reality is that rsync is a cornerstone for a lot of sensitive pipelines". Maybe don't piss off the maintainer then?
  - ofjcihen 4mo ago
    Maintainers aren’t infallible. Could he have been nicer? Sure. But we don’t need to walk on eggshells around maintainers. That’s stupid and inefficient.
123ahsg6 4mo ago
[flagged]
moi2388 4mo ago
There is no violence in the language. Violence is intentional use of physical force.

by antirez 4mo ago

cafebabbe 4mo ago

Love that your comment is ambiguous enough to apply to both sides here :)

antirez 4mo ago
Nope my comment is against the folks that are criticizing rsync author. Editing the comment to make it more clear, thanks.

weiliddat 4mo ago

Maybe I'm getting too skeptical. I have a feeling increasingly many of the comments on HN and the GitHub issue are just bots ragebaiting other people (incl. the maintainer)...

rf15 4mo ago
[flagged]
- weiliddat 4mo ago
  I'm not sure how to interpret your comment. It could be - a response to my comment saying that I am "illiterate" and cannot differentiate LLM output vs actual human comments (in that case I'm not sure what you're adding to the discussion here beyond a personal attack) - a general comment saying it's getting harder for people in a position similar to us (i.e. tech / tech-adjacent who interact a lot with others who write with LLM assistance or via LLMs) to differentiate human/AI output. I'll assume good faith and you mean the second. In that case maybe you can explain the "fundamental problem" you're referring to?
  - rf15 4mo ago
    It was a general comment. Sorry for being unclear. I'm very bothered by hearing this exact thing a lot lately. It's something I'm racking my brains over, how some people can tell certain things and intentions apart and others cannot - and how that set is different for everyone, and how this "flaw" is currently causing a lot of trouble because we, collectively, are not very well practiced in detecting this kind of thing. I don't think the internet is dead just yet, because I don't think anybody truly has the concrete intention to destroy all knowledge.
    - weiliddat 4mo ago
      No harm done, glad I clarified. I'm generally an optimistic person and very trusting of others. I'd say I'm also a pretty good reader of intentions / listener based on people who are my friends / worked with me (anecdotal of course, take it how you will). However, some of the comments in the GitHub issue... I can only assume the worst of intentions to ruin any/all motivation of the maintainer. Given we've seen social engineering and other attacks on other open source projects with increasing frequency, I can only assume that there are ulterior motives in such comments. I cannot otherwise see how those comments would be constructive towards the maintainer or the other participants in the issue.

latexr 4mo ago

I think you’re looking at it through rose-coloured glasses. Controversial issues like this which fall outside regular bug reporting have always been submitted and became popular on HN. And developers are capable of such language, we have a reputation for being rude and even used to have a poster boy for it. Blaming this on “normies” (itself typically a dismissive word) is ignoring the problem has always been there and our responsibility in it.

bakugo 4mo ago

Similarly, a few years ago, I would've never expected "my magic code generation machine is doing all my work for me now, I don't even bother looking at what it does anymore!" to reach the Hacker News home page on a regular basis, either, yet here we are. Irrational actions lead to irrational reactions.

pacifika 4mo ago
That’s not how LLMs are used by experienced engineers.
- izacus 4mo ago
  And yet this is exactly how it was used for rsync which caused the outrage you're all complaining about. You're being dishonest with what you wrote when the proof is literally in this article.
  - RugnirViking 4mo ago
    its not an article, its a github issue. There is no proof, someone posted a screenshot of another person on twitter complaining about a vague bug they experienced. It's certainly not clear the maintainer used an llm in the way described (how would you know unless they told you?). Its not even clear what issues there are specifically, or whether they were caused by ai usage.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]

roxolotl 4mo ago

Describing the issue as “violent” is wild. Reading through a bit, it’s massive, it’s clear no one involved has the moral high ground here. The polite response is to close the issue if you believe it’s genuinely off topic. Still not quite sure what you mean by obvious because to me “Stop. You know nothing. You have shipped 0 features by hand. No one has ever depended on your code.” Is much more violent than “please do not vibe fuckup this software”.

craigmart 4mo ago
The "Stop. You know nothing." comment was apparently a reference to this tweet. https://x.com/CodyRhodes/status/980680154098757632 https://x.com/CodyRhodes/status/980680154098757632 Embarassing nonetheless
- margalabargala 4mo ago
  That doesn't make it any better. At all.
- dormento 4mo ago
  That's some very embarassing american (I guess) defaultism.

themgt 4mo ago

Opening an issue consisting only of some twitter clone screenshot with some "literally who" who found a bug called "Please Do Not Vibe Fuck Up This Software" ain't it. That's not a way to tell a maintainer that you disagree with the direction they're taking. This issue is entirely useless. A "fucked up vibe coded" bug report would have been better. This nailed it. None of the bug reports even attempt to document the claimed "--compare-dest=" regression. I did ctrl-f and I didn't even see anyone mention "compare-dest" again? The people posting worthless AI rage comments could have asked Opus 4.8 to spin up rysnc 3.4.3 vs. 3.4.1, thoroughly document the regression and git bisect the commit that broke it and filed a 1000x more professional and useful bug report. If you want society to value your human work more than AI work, try to avoid acting like a uniquely human bozo.

eudamoniac 4mo ago
They're not mad about the bug, they're mad about the cause of the bug. This is like city council starts flinging stones with a trebuchet into streets, and you're expected to calmly file pothole reports instead of complaining about the trebuchet.
- soerxpso 4mo ago
  Bugs exist in human code too. The AI derangement crowd pounces on any small bug as evidence that AI is a trebuchet, and thinks that if only we didn't use AI there would never be any bugs (like five years ago when all software was perfect, was not being enshittified, and had 0 bugs).
  - bakugo 4mo ago
    > Bugs exist in human code too. These bugs did not exist in human code. They were introduced by AI. > thinks that if only we didn't use AI there would never be any bugs Strawman. These bugs would not exist if not introduced by AI.
    - Sacho 4mo ago

mhitza 4mo ago

The way Code of Conducts where being pushed on some open source projects in the past, there was enough vitriol and cross-platform harassment. This one is "tamer", a bit, because the hate goes towards the AI usage, not the person.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

ofjcihen 4mo ago

You could also say that about using dismissive language like “normies”. Regarding it reaching the front page: is it possible that’s because others feel the same way about a software they might use daily for important work? Trite as the gh issue is and surely this is thankless work, the bottom line and reality is that rsync is a cornerstone for a lot of sensitive pipelines.

stevenally 4mo ago
"Trite as the gh issue is and surely this is thankless work, the bottom line and reality is that rsync is a cornerstone for a lot of sensitive pipelines". Maybe don't piss off the maintainer then?
- ofjcihen 4mo ago
  Maintainers aren’t infallible. Could he have been nicer? Sure. But we don’t need to walk on eggshells around maintainers. That’s stupid and inefficient.

123ahsg6 4mo ago

[flagged]

moi2388 4mo ago

There is no violence in the language. Violence is intentional use of physical force.