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$80k would also be hard to do in SF for Americans. I think YC should do something around the Google Fiber initiative in KC - there's already a startup community

$80k would also be hard to do in SF for Americans. I think YC should do something around the Google Fiber initiative in KC - there's already a startup community congealing around the fiberhoods that have already gone live, and you can make it at least 1.5 to 2 years in KC on $80k, given the ridiculously low cost of living compared to SF.

philwelch 14y ago
But then you'd have to live in Kansas City, not the Bay Area, where all the investors and talent are. There are many parts of the Bay Area less expensive than SF proper.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  That's why I'm saying that YC should take the first step, since it has the power to make a startup community in KC a real thing. I also think that having the entire tech community concentrated in the Bay Area is a bad thing. It leads to mental inbreeding and a narrow perspective.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    What's the benefit to YC?
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      As I said, concentrating the community in the Bay Area leads to mental inbreeding and a narrow perspective. Funding Midwestern startups might lead to successes that couldn't have been achieved in the Bay Area. Also, such startups could be funded with less money and will have a longer runway.
      - prostoalex 14y ago
        Why would it be less money? For software startups human capital gets to be the most expensive. Unless KC has a rather large community of brilliant senior engineers, who also happen to be unemployed, you'd have to offer something significant to convince people to move there and pay their (and families') relocation. Bay Area inbreeding partially works because (a) young companies don't have to spend as much on relocation, (b) availability of public transportation makes living and working in different cities plausible.
        w1ntermute 14y ago
        > you'd have to offer something significant to convince people to move there and pay their (and families') relocation. That's why I'm saying that a push by YC combined with Google Fiber could be that initiative. Like I said, there is already interest in the startup community in KC because of Google Fiber. For example, someone started a "startup house" in the first fiberhood to get hooked up, and is now renting it out to startup founders. He's got a lot of reservations already. As for moving their families, I don't think that's a big concern. There are a ton of young, single potential founders who would have no problem moving halfway across the country. > Bay Area inbreeding partially works because (a) young companies don't have to spend as much on relocation These costs can be much lower in the Midwest. Finding an apartment is not the multi-month ordeal it can be in SF, for example. > (b) availability of public transportation makes living and working in different cities plausible. There's no need for public transportation in KC. Gas is cheap, taxes are low, and parking space is plentiful. Just get a car. In fact, I'd prefer not to take public transportation if the train stations need to be cleaned by Hazmat crews[0], as they do in SF, with BART. 0: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-down-BART-escalators-3735981.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-down...
        philwelch 14y ago
        Relocation costs to the Midwest would be lower per relocated employee, but the lowest relocation cost would be 0 because the employee already lives there. This is the benefit of the Bay Area. Traditionally the tech industry has been centered on suburban Silicon Valley, not San Francisco proper. But more and more educated young people want to live in real cities with culture, diversity, mass transportation, and walkability, which is they they live in San Francisco. There are other places with some or all of those benefits--New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, London, Berlin, Vancouver, BC--but Kansas City has close to none of them. In addition, the San Francisco Bay Area has the Sand Hill Road VC's, tons of angels, a large talent pool, two world-class CS departments at Berkeley and Stanford pumping more talent in every summer, and lots of other technology companies in town to collaborate with. It even has lots of suburbs if you really want that. Kansas City has Google Fiber. Not even Y Combinator would tip that balance.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    If YC was going to try and create a startup community outside of SV they would want to go somewhere else where actual hackers were. Certainly no where in the midwest. Maybe somewhere like Boston or NY... wait, didn't they try that?
rdl 14y ago
Generally people are willing to accept a lower quality of life (in terms of spending) for short periods, like during a summer or winter of YC. Splitting a 2br apartment with a cofounder, even in SF or MV, isn't going to consume that much of 80k -- maybe $4k/mo, tops, including utilities, food, and the premium for month to month. What screws people is when they have high fixed expenses -- like a founder who has a kid in college, a mortgage in another expensive city, non-working spouse, expensive medical insurance or medical costs, etc., or some combination of these. It's not hard to need $5-10k/mo to cover upper-middle-class fixed expenses, especially if you have to run it through payroll and thus ~50% total taxes, and then add living in the Bay Area for the summer on top of that. That is why a lot of startup founders do it when they're young, not because being 22 is inherently better for doing a startup than 44.
joonix 14y ago
What does Google Fiber have to do with anything? Are any of these startups really hosting anything in their work space? I doubt it, and either way, hosting a server on Google Fiber is currently prohibited and they don't offer business service. Beyond that, I don't think working on a 1gb connection is going to make the founders any more productive than regular 30mbit connections.

philwelch 14y ago

But then you'd have to live in Kansas City, not the Bay Area, where all the investors and talent are. There are many parts of the Bay Area less expensive than SF proper.

w1ntermute 14y ago
That's why I'm saying that YC should take the first step, since it has the power to make a startup community in KC a real thing. I also think that having the entire tech community concentrated in the Bay Area is a bad thing. It leads to mental inbreeding and a narrow perspective.
- philwelch 14y ago
  What's the benefit to YC?
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    As I said, concentrating the community in the Bay Area leads to mental inbreeding and a narrow perspective. Funding Midwestern startups might lead to successes that couldn't have been achieved in the Bay Area. Also, such startups could be funded with less money and will have a longer runway.
    - prostoalex 14y ago
      Why would it be less money? For software startups human capital gets to be the most expensive. Unless KC has a rather large community of brilliant senior engineers, who also happen to be unemployed, you'd have to offer something significant to convince people to move there and pay their (and families') relocation. Bay Area inbreeding partially works because (a) young companies don't have to spend as much on relocation, (b) availability of public transportation makes living and working in different cities plausible.
      - w1ntermute 14y ago
        > you'd have to offer something significant to convince people to move there and pay their (and families') relocation. That's why I'm saying that a push by YC combined with Google Fiber could be that initiative. Like I said, there is already interest in the startup community in KC because of Google Fiber. For example, someone started a "startup house" in the first fiberhood to get hooked up, and is now renting it out to startup founders. He's got a lot of reservations already. As for moving their families, I don't think that's a big concern. There are a ton of young, single potential founders who would have no problem moving halfway across the country. > Bay Area inbreeding partially works because (a) young companies don't have to spend as much on relocation These costs can be much lower in the Midwest. Finding an apartment is not the multi-month ordeal it can be in SF, for example. > (b) availability of public transportation makes living and working in different cities plausible. There's no need for public transportation in KC. Gas is cheap, taxes are low, and parking space is plentiful. Just get a car. In fact, I'd prefer not to take public transportation if the train stations need to be cleaned by Hazmat crews[0], as they do in SF, with BART. 0: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-down-BART-escalators-3735981.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-down...
        philwelch 14y ago
        Relocation costs to the Midwest would be lower per relocated employee, but the lowest relocation cost would be 0 because the employee already lives there. This is the benefit of the Bay Area. Traditionally the tech industry has been centered on suburban Silicon Valley, not San Francisco proper. But more and more educated young people want to live in real cities with culture, diversity, mass transportation, and walkability, which is they they live in San Francisco. There are other places with some or all of those benefits--New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, London, Berlin, Vancouver, BC--but Kansas City has close to none of them. In addition, the San Francisco Bay Area has the Sand Hill Road VC's, tons of angels, a large talent pool, two world-class CS departments at Berkeley and Stanford pumping more talent in every summer, and lots of other technology companies in town to collaborate with. It even has lots of suburbs if you really want that. Kansas City has Google Fiber. Not even Y Combinator would tip that balance.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  If YC was going to try and create a startup community outside of SV they would want to go somewhere else where actual hackers were. Certainly no where in the midwest. Maybe somewhere like Boston or NY... wait, didn't they try that?

rdl 14y ago

Generally people are willing to accept a lower quality of life (in terms of spending) for short periods, like during a summer or winter of YC. Splitting a 2br apartment with a cofounder, even in SF or MV, isn't going to consume that much of 80k -- maybe $4k/mo, tops, including utilities, food, and the premium for month to month. What screws people is when they have high fixed expenses -- like a founder who has a kid in college, a mortgage in another expensive city, non-working spouse, expensive medical insurance or medical costs, etc., or some combination of these. It's not hard to need $5-10k/mo to cover upper-middle-class fixed expenses, especially if you have to run it through payroll and thus ~50% total taxes, and then add living in the Bay Area for the summer on top of that. That is why a lot of startup founders do it when they're young, not because being 22 is inherently better for doing a startup than 44.

joonix 14y ago

What does Google Fiber have to do with anything? Are any of these startups really hosting anything in their work space? I doubt it, and either way, hosting a server on Google Fiber is currently prohibited and they don't offer business service. Beyond that, I don't think working on a 1gb connection is going to make the founders any more productive than regular 30mbit connections.