4 ms·

Having just shipped the kiddo into the real world, she's leaning liberal arts (her and her mom suck at math), but she has a benefit neither her mom or I had - E

Having just shipped the kiddo into the real world, she's leaning liberal arts (her and her mom suck at math), but she has a benefit neither her mom or I had - EU deal citizenship. She's going to do a year here to figure things out - she's also been thinking about Europe. University in Europe, for undergrad, is different than the US. I think the large class model and a barrier of exams to advance makes sense in Europe. I've not been in the University of California system for years, but the school I went to - some classes didn't always hold up a level of academic rigor.

andai 4mo ago
What is EU deal?
- sillysaurusx 4mo ago
  EU dual citizenship Edit: if anyone’s confused, there was a typo in the original post. I corrected it.
  - canyp 4mo ago
    It's the new deal.
genxy 4mo ago
No one has to suck at math. Any human can learn the majority of skills.
- plemer 4mo ago
  Have you ever taught?
  - genxy 4mo ago
    I have! My favorite students were the 55+ returning education students that really wanted to finally learn algebra and calculus.
  - vnce 4mo ago
    Yes and I standby genxy’s comment. It was always a question of motivation, not ability.
    - genxy 4mo ago
      And motivation was often impeded by either trauma or not finding a way to make it relevant to the student. Those are prereqs for learning anything. The common denominator for people that are good at something is that they liked it, so they did it more.
      - vasco 4mo ago
        I know plenty of people that went through an engineering degree with me that do not like math, but they are competent at all the way up to what an electrical engineer needs to know, which is not research level math, but what most people would call advanced. I would never say I "like" math for example but I've always thought about it as something important to learn and get decent at to succeed in life. I have way more interest in history and philosophy but the way I figured is I can learn all of that on my own because all you need is to read. Math is actually hard so I better get "trained by someone" at it.
        Kaijo 4mo ago
        I’m similar to you, except to upgrade my practical math skills at college I did cultivate a “liking” for math comparable to other technical areas I pursue. Namely, I started reading popular math books and articles, watching math youtubers, solving recreational puzzles from math periodicals… It was like, half actual interest and half contrived interest, seeing if I could develop in that direction. One summer when I had a lot of free time, with the help of a mathematician friend, I worked through a few advanced textbooks and video lecture series beyond anything I strictly needed. Progress was real but agonizing, and then I promptly forgot everything. It turns out that just maintaining a mid-to-late-undergraduate-level understanding of applied math is all I can be responsible for. It’s a responsibility I attend to, but my brain is only so mathy. At some point it becomes a question of both motivation and ability.
        4mo ago
  - jmspring 4mo ago
    Yes.
- tjwebbnorfolk 4mo ago
  No one has to suck at any one thing, but one person can't possibly be good at everything. Time is finite -- everything you choose to do is a choice to not do some other thing.
  - ajkjk 4mo ago
    nevertheless most people can be a lot better at most things than they are, in the same amount of time, if the education and culture around education is of higher quality.
    - tjwebbnorfolk 4mo ago
      I can be better at programming than I am, and I do it for a living. At certain point, I'd rather spend time kayaking or playing chess. I don't know why this is some kind of education problem -- it's opportunity cost.
- remarkEon 4mo ago
  This is not true. Math aptitude is not evenly distributed.
  - badosu 4mo ago
    Good education, where one is imbued with motivation to learn and develop knowledge. That's not evenly distributed. Anybody can learn math.
    - strken 4mo ago
      Great, I'll get on the phone to the local special school and let them know their non-verbal autistic students with IQs in the 50 to 60 range are to be enrolled in manifold theory next semester, and if they can't do it then badosu says it's all their fault because anybody can learn maths.
      - badosu 4mo ago
        You are being disingenuous. Of course people with disabilities or severely deficient in cognition have innate difficulties that might hamper or completely preclude the development of mathematical skills. The main point is that the educational environment most people have to deal with: public school in most countries, focused on rote memorization of formulas for passing tests, is the main factor on the incredibly inefficient and adversarial perception of most students and adults. If you are able to understand something as "basic" as higher order effects in economics and societies, accrued from an understanding of rates of change from calculus, you are of course extremely privileged. On the other hand you are not some gifted unicorn with a special brain, you are just lucky (exceptions exist, but even they have to be somewhat lucky). [Edit: grammar, ambiguity]
        strken 4mo ago
        I'll defer to the research[0], but I believe mathematical attainment is correlated primarily with IQ and mostly only correlated with maths anxiety, wealth, etc. to the extent that those things are proxies for IQ. It's cruel to tell students that everyone can learn maths. Neither "everyone" nor "maths" is strictly true, you know it's not true, and most of the students also know it's not true. If you just told them "everyone in the class can improve" then it would be correct and uplifting! Terrence Tao is a gifted unicorn with a special brain and this makes him lucky, as does his excellent education. Everything is luck when you look at it from enough of a distance. [0] For example, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11532492/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11532492/
- jmspring 4mo ago
  I think it is a matter of focus and aptitude. It also depends on instruction and approach. I took more math than I care to remember in college. Physics made calculus click. Upper division physics classes made some transform math confusing. David Huffman (yes, that one) taught a class in the CS department covering the same thing - from first principles - it made sense. When the kiddo was dealing with common core stuff, I threw up my hands ... the approach made no sense, but sold text books.
quadrifoliate 4mo ago
Does EU dual citizenship help with university if you are not currently a resident of the EU? I always thought the low EU-local fees for European universities were based on EU residency, not citizenship.
- luckystarr 4mo ago
  In most of Germany neither is required (Baden Württemberg requires non-EU citizens to pay 1.5k€ per semester). Commonly though you have to pay from 200 to 300€ administrative fees. The harder problem is to enter Germany, but as you have EU citizenship, that's not a problem for you.

andai 4mo ago

What is EU deal?

sillysaurusx 4mo ago
EU dual citizenship Edit: if anyone’s confused, there was a typo in the original post. I corrected it.
- canyp 4mo ago
  It's the new deal.

genxy 4mo ago

No one has to suck at math. Any human can learn the majority of skills.

plemer 4mo ago
Have you ever taught?
- genxy 4mo ago
  I have! My favorite students were the 55+ returning education students that really wanted to finally learn algebra and calculus.
- vnce 4mo ago
  Yes and I standby genxy’s comment. It was always a question of motivation, not ability.
  - genxy 4mo ago
    And motivation was often impeded by either trauma or not finding a way to make it relevant to the student. Those are prereqs for learning anything. The common denominator for people that are good at something is that they liked it, so they did it more.
    - vasco 4mo ago
      I know plenty of people that went through an engineering degree with me that do not like math, but they are competent at all the way up to what an electrical engineer needs to know, which is not research level math, but what most people would call advanced. I would never say I "like" math for example but I've always thought about it as something important to learn and get decent at to succeed in life. I have way more interest in history and philosophy but the way I figured is I can learn all of that on my own because all you need is to read. Math is actually hard so I better get "trained by someone" at it.
      - Kaijo 4mo ago
        I’m similar to you, except to upgrade my practical math skills at college I did cultivate a “liking” for math comparable to other technical areas I pursue. Namely, I started reading popular math books and articles, watching math youtubers, solving recreational puzzles from math periodicals… It was like, half actual interest and half contrived interest, seeing if I could develop in that direction. One summer when I had a lot of free time, with the help of a mathematician friend, I worked through a few advanced textbooks and video lecture series beyond anything I strictly needed. Progress was real but agonizing, and then I promptly forgot everything. It turns out that just maintaining a mid-to-late-undergraduate-level understanding of applied math is all I can be responsible for. It’s a responsibility I attend to, but my brain is only so mathy. At some point it becomes a question of both motivation and ability.
      - 4mo ago
- jmspring 4mo ago
  Yes.
tjwebbnorfolk 4mo ago
No one has to suck at any one thing, but one person can't possibly be good at everything. Time is finite -- everything you choose to do is a choice to not do some other thing.
- ajkjk 4mo ago
  nevertheless most people can be a lot better at most things than they are, in the same amount of time, if the education and culture around education is of higher quality.
  - tjwebbnorfolk 4mo ago
    I can be better at programming than I am, and I do it for a living. At certain point, I'd rather spend time kayaking or playing chess. I don't know why this is some kind of education problem -- it's opportunity cost.
remarkEon 4mo ago
This is not true. Math aptitude is not evenly distributed.
- badosu 4mo ago
  Good education, where one is imbued with motivation to learn and develop knowledge. That's not evenly distributed. Anybody can learn math.
  - strken 4mo ago
    Great, I'll get on the phone to the local special school and let them know their non-verbal autistic students with IQs in the 50 to 60 range are to be enrolled in manifold theory next semester, and if they can't do it then badosu says it's all their fault because anybody can learn maths.
    - badosu 4mo ago
      You are being disingenuous. Of course people with disabilities or severely deficient in cognition have innate difficulties that might hamper or completely preclude the development of mathematical skills. The main point is that the educational environment most people have to deal with: public school in most countries, focused on rote memorization of formulas for passing tests, is the main factor on the incredibly inefficient and adversarial perception of most students and adults. If you are able to understand something as "basic" as higher order effects in economics and societies, accrued from an understanding of rates of change from calculus, you are of course extremely privileged. On the other hand you are not some gifted unicorn with a special brain, you are just lucky (exceptions exist, but even they have to be somewhat lucky). [Edit: grammar, ambiguity]
      - strken 4mo ago
        I'll defer to the research[0], but I believe mathematical attainment is correlated primarily with IQ and mostly only correlated with maths anxiety, wealth, etc. to the extent that those things are proxies for IQ. It's cruel to tell students that everyone can learn maths. Neither "everyone" nor "maths" is strictly true, you know it's not true, and most of the students also know it's not true. If you just told them "everyone in the class can improve" then it would be correct and uplifting! Terrence Tao is a gifted unicorn with a special brain and this makes him lucky, as does his excellent education. Everything is luck when you look at it from enough of a distance. [0] For example, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11532492/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11532492/
jmspring 4mo ago
I think it is a matter of focus and aptitude. It also depends on instruction and approach. I took more math than I care to remember in college. Physics made calculus click. Upper division physics classes made some transform math confusing. David Huffman (yes, that one) taught a class in the CS department covering the same thing - from first principles - it made sense. When the kiddo was dealing with common core stuff, I threw up my hands ... the approach made no sense, but sold text books.

quadrifoliate 4mo ago

Does EU dual citizenship help with university if you are not currently a resident of the EU? I always thought the low EU-local fees for European universities were based on EU residency, not citizenship.

luckystarr 4mo ago
In most of Germany neither is required (Baden Württemberg requires non-EU citizens to pay 1.5k€ per semester). Commonly though you have to pay from 200 to 300€ administrative fees. The harder problem is to enter Germany, but as you have EU citizenship, that's not a problem for you.