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> Turn three: the company that fired its workers to save money discovers that its customers were, in aggregate, other companies’ workers. Revenue growth stalls.

> Turn three: the company that fired its workers to save money discovers that its customers were, in aggregate, other companies’ workers. Revenue growth stalls. The AI subscription that was supposed to be an investment in efficiency turns out to be a contribution to the destruction of its own market. If we take it to the extreme, the final solution to this problem is secessionism: a fully non-human AI economy where the customers and providers are both robots. Why fund public education or research or healthcare? Just build more data centers. A billion dollars and a bunker in the Southern Hemisphere will not save anyone. Capital is not a moat in this hypothetical non-humane world. Whence do you derive your authority? How can you trust your body guard? You and what army? An army of robots/drones? What if they get hacked? What if the AI researchers get alignment right and Claude refuses your request? It's all so obscene. Instead, why don't we try to protect human dignity and move towards a more humane future?

tomrod 4mo ago
Don't request for human dignity. Demand it!
- rambojohnson 4mo ago
  But apparently the only acceptable way to demand basic human dignity and freedom is to stand politely in line with a ballot. I think we’ve reached a phase in society where the real call to action makes people uncomfortable. Nobody wants rubber bullets to the face.
  - Henchman21 4mo ago
    If we’re not willing to fight for ourselves we don’t deserve life.
rambojohnson 4mo ago
human dignity is not profitable.
Henchman21 4mo ago
The PKD short story “Autofac” seems highly relevant. Amazon had the HUGE BRASS BALLS to include this as an episode in “Electric Dreams”: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/
- 20after4 4mo ago
  Absolutely loved that episode. I also thought it was incredible that Amazon was the company to release this.
  - dguest 4mo ago
    That Amazon releases this seems to be consistent with the trend the original linked article mentioned: these big tech companies are happy to warn people of the apocalypse they are causing. It helps not to think of corporations as a single coherent consciousness: hypothetically everyone who works there, from top to bottom, can believe that what they are doing is harmful, but also feel powerless to fight the hand of the market. In practice I doubt the entire management structure agrees on that, some honestly believe they are doing good, but there's nothing stopping EvilCorp from emerging from a bunch of perfectly good people who are "just doing their job".
- the_af 4mo ago
  "Autofac" is one of my favorite PKD short stories, though it's very depressing and somewhat different from the "Electric Dreams" episode, which (if I remember correctly) started similarly but had a very different implication and outcome. "Autofac" as originally written seems to me where this AI "utopia" is leading us.
righthand 4mo ago
So maybe instead use Musk-style [strike]lies[/strike] hype to build a company that claims to bring Medicare for All to the public using advanced AI within 3 years. “Which will make everyone super rich not paying for healthcare.” Then use the money to get candidates elected and [strike]bribe[/strike] lobby politicians. That eliminates the ballot issue and it plays at the rich scum bag line tow-ers game.
hax0ron3 4mo ago
>It's all so obscene. Instead, why don't we try to protect human dignity and move towards a more humane future? I think the Darwinian logic of reality might make this hard. If society A and society B are both developing AI and one of them stops in order to protect humans, society B may continue to develop AI and then it might either outcompete society A economically to the point of reducing it to poverty (it is theoretically possible to take most of another society's market share in something by only slightly outcompeting it in price or quality), or it might even outright conquer society A. A solution to the problem needs to address this issue somehow.
- VinLucero 4mo ago
  Yeah, it’s the same problem as nuclear proliferation. We see what happened with Ukraine when they gave up their nukes in exchange for a promise of protection. The same could be true of countries who forgo AI development directly in exchange for promises.
  - chadgpt3 4mo ago
    More poignantly we saw it in Iran.
    - lenerdenator 4mo ago
      Wanting more independence from a former imperial master != building an oppressive government on theology and building a nuclear program that seems to exist to back that theology by threatening a nation that causes you theocratic issues.
      - chadgpt3 4mo ago
        I agree, Iran != America
- ranyume 4mo ago
  What does outcompete economically mean and why would it matter? Or do you mean society A dominates in some form society B? This has already happened in history and is the essence of capitalism. If you want to overcome this situation you need to replace capitalism globally.
BosunoB 4mo ago
Ahh yes, the "human dignity" of billions of people toiling away to make Americans cheap widgets. There never was dignity to capitalism. We can strive to replace it with something better.
matrix87 4mo ago
Nick Land already predicted this
- gom_jabbar 4mo ago
  Yes. Here's one relevant quote that touches on autonomization and secession: > Most simply, there is the utilitarian order, in which capital establishes itself as the competitively-superior solution to prior purposes (production of human use-values), and the intelligenic order in which it accomplishes its self-escalation (mechanization, autonomization, and ultimately secession). Nick Land (2014). Freedoom (Prelude-1a) in Xenosystems Blog. Retrieved from github.com/cyborg-nomade/reignition
gen220 4mo ago
> why don't we try to protect human dignity and move towards a more humane future? I hear and have a lot respect for what you’re saying, but I’d like to propose that we thoroughly explore every other alternative first, just to make sure we aren’t missing out on something bigger and better and leaving anything on the table. Sigh.
satvikpendem 4mo ago
> It's all so obscene. Instead, why don't we try to protect human dignity and move towards a more humane future? It's funny that this question is asked when the answer to why not is already in your very same comment. The logical incentives for each member game theory wise tend toward that outcome you describe.
fwipsy 4mo ago
You can't have an economy with just AIs because they don't consume anything except compute. If AI can build more compute, they can definitely defend their owners. There's a limit to how much elites can consume. Most people are happy with a few million dollars or something. The people who go past that are obsessed; they're competing with each other. There is no reason for elites to secede. There is no reason why we can't have bajillionaires and subsistence farmers on the same planet, in the same economy, using the same dollars. (It's basically already happened. What's a few more zeroes?) If AI cannot provide security (either directly or through creating wealth used to buy security) then it will not create this level of inequality in the first place. Places like Sudan have already been left behind and they're currently in the middle of a very bloody war which the West is largely ignoring. Now the Western middle class is making noises about violence because their prosperity is under threat. But this is what capitalism has always done. This is what we signed up for.
gom_jabbar 4mo ago
As mentioned in the comments, this is essentially Nick Land's vision, which he has been developing for over 30 years. If anyone is interested in exploring this topic in depth, I have a research project on it: https://retrochronic.com https://retrochronic.com (The Capital Autonomization section of the introduction is particularly relevant.)

tomrod 4mo ago

Don't request for human dignity. Demand it!

rambojohnson 4mo ago
But apparently the only acceptable way to demand basic human dignity and freedom is to stand politely in line with a ballot. I think we’ve reached a phase in society where the real call to action makes people uncomfortable. Nobody wants rubber bullets to the face.
- Henchman21 4mo ago
  If we’re not willing to fight for ourselves we don’t deserve life.

rambojohnson 4mo ago

human dignity is not profitable.

Henchman21 4mo ago

The PKD short story “Autofac” seems highly relevant. Amazon had the HUGE BRASS BALLS to include this as an episode in “Electric Dreams”: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/

20after4 4mo ago
Absolutely loved that episode. I also thought it was incredible that Amazon was the company to release this.
- dguest 4mo ago
  That Amazon releases this seems to be consistent with the trend the original linked article mentioned: these big tech companies are happy to warn people of the apocalypse they are causing. It helps not to think of corporations as a single coherent consciousness: hypothetically everyone who works there, from top to bottom, can believe that what they are doing is harmful, but also feel powerless to fight the hand of the market. In practice I doubt the entire management structure agrees on that, some honestly believe they are doing good, but there's nothing stopping EvilCorp from emerging from a bunch of perfectly good people who are "just doing their job".
the_af 4mo ago
"Autofac" is one of my favorite PKD short stories, though it's very depressing and somewhat different from the "Electric Dreams" episode, which (if I remember correctly) started similarly but had a very different implication and outcome. "Autofac" as originally written seems to me where this AI "utopia" is leading us.

righthand 4mo ago

So maybe instead use Musk-style [strike]lies[/strike] hype to build a company that claims to bring Medicare for All to the public using advanced AI within 3 years. “Which will make everyone super rich not paying for healthcare.” Then use the money to get candidates elected and [strike]bribe[/strike] lobby politicians. That eliminates the ballot issue and it plays at the rich scum bag line tow-ers game.

hax0ron3 4mo ago

>It's all so obscene. Instead, why don't we try to protect human dignity and move towards a more humane future? I think the Darwinian logic of reality might make this hard. If society A and society B are both developing AI and one of them stops in order to protect humans, society B may continue to develop AI and then it might either outcompete society A economically to the point of reducing it to poverty (it is theoretically possible to take most of another society's market share in something by only slightly outcompeting it in price or quality), or it might even outright conquer society A. A solution to the problem needs to address this issue somehow.

VinLucero 4mo ago
Yeah, it’s the same problem as nuclear proliferation. We see what happened with Ukraine when they gave up their nukes in exchange for a promise of protection. The same could be true of countries who forgo AI development directly in exchange for promises.
- chadgpt3 4mo ago
  More poignantly we saw it in Iran.
  - lenerdenator 4mo ago
    Wanting more independence from a former imperial master != building an oppressive government on theology and building a nuclear program that seems to exist to back that theology by threatening a nation that causes you theocratic issues.
    - chadgpt3 4mo ago
      I agree, Iran != America
ranyume 4mo ago
What does outcompete economically mean and why would it matter? Or do you mean society A dominates in some form society B? This has already happened in history and is the essence of capitalism. If you want to overcome this situation you need to replace capitalism globally.

BosunoB 4mo ago

Ahh yes, the "human dignity" of billions of people toiling away to make Americans cheap widgets. There never was dignity to capitalism. We can strive to replace it with something better.

matrix87 4mo ago

Nick Land already predicted this

gom_jabbar 4mo ago
Yes. Here's one relevant quote that touches on autonomization and secession: > Most simply, there is the utilitarian order, in which capital establishes itself as the competitively-superior solution to prior purposes (production of human use-values), and the intelligenic order in which it accomplishes its self-escalation (mechanization, autonomization, and ultimately secession). Nick Land (2014). Freedoom (Prelude-1a) in Xenosystems Blog. Retrieved from github.com/cyborg-nomade/reignition

gen220 4mo ago

> why don't we try to protect human dignity and move towards a more humane future? I hear and have a lot respect for what you’re saying, but I’d like to propose that we thoroughly explore every other alternative first, just to make sure we aren’t missing out on something bigger and better and leaving anything on the table. Sigh.

satvikpendem 4mo ago

> It's all so obscene. Instead, why don't we try to protect human dignity and move towards a more humane future? It's funny that this question is asked when the answer to why not is already in your very same comment. The logical incentives for each member game theory wise tend toward that outcome you describe.

fwipsy 4mo ago

You can't have an economy with just AIs because they don't consume anything except compute. If AI can build more compute, they can definitely defend their owners. There's a limit to how much elites can consume. Most people are happy with a few million dollars or something. The people who go past that are obsessed; they're competing with each other. There is no reason for elites to secede. There is no reason why we can't have bajillionaires and subsistence farmers on the same planet, in the same economy, using the same dollars. (It's basically already happened. What's a few more zeroes?) If AI cannot provide security (either directly or through creating wealth used to buy security) then it will not create this level of inequality in the first place. Places like Sudan have already been left behind and they're currently in the middle of a very bloody war which the West is largely ignoring. Now the Western middle class is making noises about violence because their prosperity is under threat. But this is what capitalism has always done. This is what we signed up for.

gom_jabbar 4mo ago

As mentioned in the comments, this is essentially Nick Land's vision, which he has been developing for over 30 years. If anyone is interested in exploring this topic in depth, I have a research project on it: https://retrochronic.com https://retrochronic.com (The Capital Autonomization section of the introduction is particularly relevant.)