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In the section "Everyone should learn some coding": > I would say that the major unlocks are at: 1-2 weeks: Basic understanding of what the field is about

by j_w 4mo ago

In the section "Everyone should learn some coding": > I would say that the major unlocks are at: 1-2 weeks: Basic understanding of what the field is about and what general words to use when asking the AI to do something. 1-2 months: Basic understanding of how and when to ask the AI something. 4-6 months: Ability to check the output for correctness (using external sources as needed). 1-2 weeks for enough of an understanding to appropriately use terms? No way. Using Harvard CS50 as a reference, it takes until week 2 to learn about arrays. 4-6 months to check output for correctness? Are we trusting fresh bootcampers in their first week at their first job to do prod code reviews now? You can learn a LOT in a short period of time, but it would take much more than casual time investment. This is insane advice on the level of telling blue collar workers to just "learn to code."

bluefirebrand 4mo ago
This reminds me of a "rich people meme". You know, people who are rich enough they never have to look at price tags? "How much could a bunch of bananas cost. $30?" This strikes me as someone who has lost touch with how much time and effort that building real expertise takes.
brilee 4mo ago
(author here) As a serial successful field-hopper, I agree that I'm not the right person to be making these estimates. But the external view is that college courses roughly expect you to do what I'm claiming, in roughly the time investment that I'm claiming -- and undergrads are typically in 4+ classes at a time. So is it that the whole educational system is delusional? (I fully acknowledge it might be so!)
- yw3410 4mo ago
  Noone trusts a new graduate to do a code review - especially for big or novel features.
- j_w 4mo ago
  The reality is that most people write horrible code. The programming knowledge of a university student that just completed their intro programming course is abysmal. The programming knowledge of a university student that just completed the 4 year degree, but didn't spend hundreds to thousands of additional hours working on programming outside of that is abysmal. College classes don't expect you to learn programming to any real extent, they expect you to learn computer science. And the rigor of most schools is even questionable there. I've been programming for a long time and I'm still not sure if what I write is very good. I know it's better than a lot of what I see, but shiny trash is still trash. I've seen astoundingly bad production issues (bugs are sometimes an understatement) produced by senior engineers. Those people have years of experience and I wouldn't trust them to properly review my code, let alone LLM code. I do think people should try and learn the basics of any and everything, and I mean everything literally. But if you know the basics of biology are you now able to credibly review ChatGPT's medical advice?
zahlman 4mo ago
> 1-2 weeks for enough of an understanding to appropriately use terms? No way. Using Harvard CS50 as a reference, it takes until week 2 to learn about arrays. In my experience trying to teach, appropriate use of terms can lag way behind basic understanding of the concepts. (And it seems to inhibit getting beyond a "basic" level of understanding...)

by j_w 4mo ago

bluefirebrand 4mo ago

This reminds me of a "rich people meme". You know, people who are rich enough they never have to look at price tags? "How much could a bunch of bananas cost. $30?" This strikes me as someone who has lost touch with how much time and effort that building real expertise takes.

brilee 4mo ago

(author here) As a serial successful field-hopper, I agree that I'm not the right person to be making these estimates. But the external view is that college courses roughly expect you to do what I'm claiming, in roughly the time investment that I'm claiming -- and undergrads are typically in 4+ classes at a time. So is it that the whole educational system is delusional? (I fully acknowledge it might be so!)

yw3410 4mo ago
Noone trusts a new graduate to do a code review - especially for big or novel features.
j_w 4mo ago
The reality is that most people write horrible code. The programming knowledge of a university student that just completed their intro programming course is abysmal. The programming knowledge of a university student that just completed the 4 year degree, but didn't spend hundreds to thousands of additional hours working on programming outside of that is abysmal. College classes don't expect you to learn programming to any real extent, they expect you to learn computer science. And the rigor of most schools is even questionable there. I've been programming for a long time and I'm still not sure if what I write is very good. I know it's better than a lot of what I see, but shiny trash is still trash. I've seen astoundingly bad production issues (bugs are sometimes an understatement) produced by senior engineers. Those people have years of experience and I wouldn't trust them to properly review my code, let alone LLM code. I do think people should try and learn the basics of any and everything, and I mean everything literally. But if you know the basics of biology are you now able to credibly review ChatGPT's medical advice?

zahlman 4mo ago

> 1-2 weeks for enough of an understanding to appropriately use terms? No way. Using Harvard CS50 as a reference, it takes until week 2 to learn about arrays. In my experience trying to teach, appropriate use of terms can lag way behind basic understanding of the concepts. (And it seems to inhibit getting beyond a "basic" level of understanding...)