4 ms·

This is a brutal (but polite -- classic US Midwestern Geerling 'kill them with kindness'!) side-by-side comparison. My heart goes out to the Framework Computer

by throwaway2037 5mo ago

This is a brutal (but polite -- classic US Midwestern Geerling 'kill them with kindness'!) side-by-side comparison. My heart goes out to the Framework Computer team. Any team trying to compete in this product space against the surprise from Mac Neo must feel crushed. That said, I am still very optimistic for Framework Computer. It seems like nerds are going wild for them.

SoftTalker 5mo ago
I didn't watch the video but isn't the main selling point of the Framework line (from their website) "Designed for easy customization, upgrades, and repairs." I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste.
- akkartik 5mo ago
  It's actually not bad. The rhetoric has had an effect over the years. https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-repairable-macbook-in-14-years https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r...
  - Certhas 5mo ago
    EU regulations have had an effect.
  - AshamedCaptain 5mo ago
    It's actually not bad? "The most repairable MacBook in years" means practically nothing. And for someone who might be comparing with a Framework, it's probably an insult.
    - akkartik 5mo ago
      You're preaching to the choir, brother. But reread the comment I replied to. "Use as-is until e-waste" the Neo is not.
      - bel8 5mo ago
        > "Use as-is until e-waste" the Neo is not That's a very low bar to clear
        akkartik 5mo ago
        [flagged]
        bel8 5mo ago
        > You are to be congratulated on the sheer looming height of your standards. The angels cry out to you from the heavens. Sheesh. - akkartik Snarky ad-hominem comments are forbidden in HN, FYI. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        akkartik 5mo ago
        Edit: thanks for toning it down. I will as well. From the comment up above: > I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste. So the "bar" is irrelevant to this conversation.
        deleted 5mo ago
        [deleted]
        margalabargala 5mo ago
        Yes, which makes the comment claiming the neo doesn't clear it all the more egregious.
        AshamedCaptain 5mo ago
        I have been rocking _smaller_ tablet PCs with better reparability score than the Neo in iFixit since practically the 2010s. My current one is a 10/10 from HP. This to say nothing about upgradability. The Neo doesn't clear the bar. It just barely improves over recent macbooks, which is next to nothing. Specially to someone comparing to the Framework!
    - NoNoisle 5mo ago
      What would mean something to you captain?
  - makeitdouble 5mo ago
    It's still a 6 on the scale, and parts pairing, third party restrictions are still in place. For reference, the latest Thinkpad T series is 10/10, so a better build is clearly possible. It is actually bad. Not as bad as previous models, but still bad.
    - blazarquasar 5mo ago
      That may be true, but a MacBook is still better value for your money than any of the new Thinkpads, performance and build-quality wise.
      - makeitdouble 5mo ago
        What's your universal "value for money" index that should apply to everyone ? For instance why should a touch support or better port selection be less valuable to me than let's say battery life ? Does supporting multiple OSes have a defined value to money ratio that I'm not aware of ?
        blazarquasar 5mo ago
        Well, thats why I specifically mentioned “performance and build-quality wise”. If you want to run Linux, then it’s obviously not a viable option.
        makeitdouble 5mo ago
        It's still the same kind of argument. What you mean by "build quality" is probably mainly the unibody frame ? Why not include repairability as litteral build quality ? and what about weight or shock absorption? Same way "performance" can't be a fixed set of measures for everyone. I care about GPU speed in VR games and macs doen't give me much of it. My point is we can't throw around "X is better performance wise" with no context, it makes no sense on its own.
      - pjmlp 5mo ago
        Not for European prices, using Thinkpads since 2006, and yes I do have access to Apple hardware at work.
  - throwaway2037 5mo ago
    I watched some of their (iFixIt) recent videos about Framework laptops, Mac Neo, and Lenovo laptops. What I love about them: They are not haters. They just want companies to get meaningfully and incrementally better at repair. 10/10 rating does not mean perfection -- it means "great" (very repairable). In a modern world of so much unnecessary manufactured drama on social media (including YouTube), it is nice to see a high quality company batting away the opportunity for unnecessary manufactured! The most recent Lenovo laptops have a bunch of minor complaints -- still they got 10/10.
  - culi 4mo ago
    Sure, but a 6/10 for "the most repairable macbook in 14 years" is still a 6/10. Lenovo ThinkPads range from 8-10 and even the Microsoft Surface 7 got an 8
- borgel 5mo ago
  You won't be able to upgrade it, but it is at least moderately repairable.
- rjrjrjrj 5mo ago
  You will be able to drop an old Neo off at an Apple store and they'll recycle it. Same as with most of their other products.
  - pjmlp 5mo ago
    Most countries don't have them, with luck official resellers.
hadlock 5mo ago
Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.
- SoftTalker 5mo ago
  You're probably right for most people. But in laptops I've owned, I've done stuff like upgrade storage, upgrade/add RAM, swap out the WiFi module for one that has better OS driver support, replace batteries.
- sorry_outta_gas 5mo ago
  [dead]
- helterskelter 5mo ago
  Maybe. My wife is non tech and after dropping her XPS and breaking the screen she was real interested in something that can have a replacement display installed in about half an hour. She wishes her F13 were a little slimmer like her XPS, but she gets a lot of peace of mind knowing that repairs something that "even" she could do. I'd also say that Linux support basically from day 1 is their hidden killer feature. Literally zero fuss. That's mattering to a lot more people these days even if they don't daily drive Linux, it's a good plan B in case Windows manages to get even worse.
  - hadlock 5mo ago
    Most people who want a user-replaceable screen just buy a Thinkpad. I've replaced the screen on all two of the thinkpads i've owned over the last 16 years. I still have my X series from 2010; it still works, only an ant crawled between two layers of the screen and died near the center and after 7 years it was time for an upgrade. It also ran (still runs) linux just fine due to that one guy at RedHat (who very recently retired) who maintained so many of the drivers for the world. I never needed anything more complicated than a philips head screwdriver to replace the screen, ram, keyboard, hard disk, or battery. And you can get parts for a thinkpad in most countries you're likely to visit.

SoftTalker 5mo ago

I didn't watch the video but isn't the main selling point of the Framework line (from their website) "Designed for easy customization, upgrades, and repairs." I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste.

akkartik 5mo ago
It's actually not bad. The rhetoric has had an effect over the years. https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-repairable-macbook-in-14-years https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r...
- Certhas 5mo ago
  EU regulations have had an effect.
- AshamedCaptain 5mo ago
  It's actually not bad? "The most repairable MacBook in years" means practically nothing. And for someone who might be comparing with a Framework, it's probably an insult.
  - akkartik 5mo ago
    You're preaching to the choir, brother. But reread the comment I replied to. "Use as-is until e-waste" the Neo is not.
    - bel8 5mo ago
      > "Use as-is until e-waste" the Neo is not That's a very low bar to clear
      - akkartik 5mo ago
        [flagged]
        bel8 5mo ago
        > You are to be congratulated on the sheer looming height of your standards. The angels cry out to you from the heavens. Sheesh. - akkartik Snarky ad-hominem comments are forbidden in HN, FYI. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        akkartik 5mo ago
        Edit: thanks for toning it down. I will as well. From the comment up above: > I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste. So the "bar" is irrelevant to this conversation.
        deleted 5mo ago
        [deleted]
      - margalabargala 5mo ago
        Yes, which makes the comment claiming the neo doesn't clear it all the more egregious.
        AshamedCaptain 5mo ago
        I have been rocking _smaller_ tablet PCs with better reparability score than the Neo in iFixit since practically the 2010s. My current one is a 10/10 from HP. This to say nothing about upgradability. The Neo doesn't clear the bar. It just barely improves over recent macbooks, which is next to nothing. Specially to someone comparing to the Framework!
  - NoNoisle 5mo ago
    What would mean something to you captain?
- makeitdouble 5mo ago
  It's still a 6 on the scale, and parts pairing, third party restrictions are still in place. For reference, the latest Thinkpad T series is 10/10, so a better build is clearly possible. It is actually bad. Not as bad as previous models, but still bad.
  - blazarquasar 5mo ago
    That may be true, but a MacBook is still better value for your money than any of the new Thinkpads, performance and build-quality wise.
    - makeitdouble 5mo ago
      What's your universal "value for money" index that should apply to everyone ? For instance why should a touch support or better port selection be less valuable to me than let's say battery life ? Does supporting multiple OSes have a defined value to money ratio that I'm not aware of ?
      - blazarquasar 5mo ago
        Well, thats why I specifically mentioned “performance and build-quality wise”. If you want to run Linux, then it’s obviously not a viable option.
        makeitdouble 5mo ago
        It's still the same kind of argument. What you mean by "build quality" is probably mainly the unibody frame ? Why not include repairability as litteral build quality ? and what about weight or shock absorption? Same way "performance" can't be a fixed set of measures for everyone. I care about GPU speed in VR games and macs doen't give me much of it. My point is we can't throw around "X is better performance wise" with no context, it makes no sense on its own.
    - pjmlp 5mo ago
      Not for European prices, using Thinkpads since 2006, and yes I do have access to Apple hardware at work.
- throwaway2037 5mo ago
  I watched some of their (iFixIt) recent videos about Framework laptops, Mac Neo, and Lenovo laptops. What I love about them: They are not haters. They just want companies to get meaningfully and incrementally better at repair. 10/10 rating does not mean perfection -- it means "great" (very repairable). In a modern world of so much unnecessary manufactured drama on social media (including YouTube), it is nice to see a high quality company batting away the opportunity for unnecessary manufactured! The most recent Lenovo laptops have a bunch of minor complaints -- still they got 10/10.
- culi 4mo ago
  Sure, but a 6/10 for "the most repairable macbook in 14 years" is still a 6/10. Lenovo ThinkPads range from 8-10 and even the Microsoft Surface 7 got an 8
borgel 5mo ago
You won't be able to upgrade it, but it is at least moderately repairable.
rjrjrjrj 5mo ago
You will be able to drop an old Neo off at an Apple store and they'll recycle it. Same as with most of their other products.
- pjmlp 5mo ago
  Most countries don't have them, with luck official resellers.

hadlock 5mo ago

Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.

SoftTalker 5mo ago
You're probably right for most people. But in laptops I've owned, I've done stuff like upgrade storage, upgrade/add RAM, swap out the WiFi module for one that has better OS driver support, replace batteries.
sorry_outta_gas 5mo ago
[dead]
helterskelter 5mo ago
Maybe. My wife is non tech and after dropping her XPS and breaking the screen she was real interested in something that can have a replacement display installed in about half an hour. She wishes her F13 were a little slimmer like her XPS, but she gets a lot of peace of mind knowing that repairs something that "even" she could do. I'd also say that Linux support basically from day 1 is their hidden killer feature. Literally zero fuss. That's mattering to a lot more people these days even if they don't daily drive Linux, it's a good plan B in case Windows manages to get even worse.
- hadlock 5mo ago
  Most people who want a user-replaceable screen just buy a Thinkpad. I've replaced the screen on all two of the thinkpads i've owned over the last 16 years. I still have my X series from 2010; it still works, only an ant crawled between two layers of the screen and died near the center and after 7 years it was time for an upgrade. It also ran (still runs) linux just fine due to that one guy at RedHat (who very recently retired) who maintained so many of the drivers for the world. I never needed anything more complicated than a philips head screwdriver to replace the screen, ram, keyboard, hard disk, or battery. And you can get parts for a thinkpad in most countries you're likely to visit.