6 ms·

Make life affordable and give time outside work, and the population crisis* will fix itself. Keep insisting on Draconian hours for unlivable pay, and you get w

Make life affordable and give time outside work, and the population crisis* will fix itself. Keep insisting on Draconian hours for unlivable pay, and you get what you asked for. * Falling population is a political problem, not a social one. It also feels like this is the system working as intended from the higher ups.

nine_zeros 5mo ago
[dead]
Nasrudith 5mo ago
Except there is the awkward fact that it is the third world which has higher population growth rates and the nordics have are leaders in low birth rates.
- smackeyacky 5mo ago
  Why is this fact awkward?
  - GroksBarnacles 5mo ago
    They meant awkward in this context because it seemed contrary the theory of the comment above them.
- GroksBarnacles 5mo ago
  Consider that the world is complex and there's more than one factor. Conservatives cultures have higher birth rates, as do families with lower educational levels. Both are common in the third world. In developed countries, there's constant conversation about how people are being priced out of feeling safe or able to hit traditional milestones like having children. I myself didnt have kids in a marriage only because we couldn't afford it, and I worked around the clock hoping to soon.
- no-name-here 5mo ago
  Africa has by far the highest rates, and the Nordics are far below replacement, but some of the lowest (and noticeably lower than the Nordics) are South Korea (0.7), Taiwan (0.9), and Singapore (0.9). Replacement would require ~2.1. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-born-per-woman?tab=map https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-born-per-woman?t...
alephnerd 5mo ago
> Make life affordable and give time outside work > Keep insisting on Draconian hours for unlivable pay Average hours worked in Japan are comparable to the UK and significantly lower than the US, Canada, Czechia, and Israel [0], yet they all have significantly higher birth rates than Japan. The issue in Japan and Asia in general is cultural. Women are still expected to both hold a career and do all household chores and have 2 kids. In a lot of cases, jobs will de facto fire women if they have kids because of the cultural expectation that they will leave to have kids and become a housewife. Unsurprisingly, plenty of Japanese women have decided they don't want that life and have decided against marriage. On the other side of the coin, plenty of Japanese women hold off on marriage until they find a partner who can afford to be a primary earner. Unsurprisingly, this means higher educated households in Japan tend to have a higher birth rate than less educated ones [1] as they tend to be more economically stable. The only developed country which has an above replacement TFR is Israel (even non-religious secular Israelis have a replacement TFR), and it's culturally one of the most pro-children societies I've ever been and much more gender egalitarian than other countries. All conversations about TFR and birth rates on HN are from a male point of view and never actually as why women don't want kids or maybe don't want to date a number of HNers/Redditors. It's very incel-like in nature. [0] - https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html [1] - https://weekly-economist.mainichi.jp/articles/20250916/se1/00m/020/007000c https://weekly-economist.mainichi.jp/articles/20250916/se1/0...
- like_any_other 5mo ago
  > Average hours worked in Japan are comparable to the UK and significantly lower than the US, Canada, Czechia, and Israel How trustworthy is that data? It claims to count only employed people, but for Japan it works out to 6.2 hours work per day, 5 days a week. Yet we all hear stories of workers in Japan having basically no life outside of work. And when people visit Japan, they report things like everything being spotless, and trash containers and trucks being washed daily - labor intensive things. Something doesn't add up.
  - alephnerd 5mo ago
    > How trustworthy is that data Very. This is the OECD. > Yet we all hear stories of workers in Japan having basically no life outside of work These anecdotes tend to be decades old. After the labor code changes in 2018; the new generation of Japanese megacorps like SoftBank, Rakuten, Mercari, and LY normalizing Western work culture; and the worker shortage in the 2010s, work hours reduced. > And when people visit Japan, they report things like everything being spotless, and trash containers and trucks being washed daily This is done by guest workers brought in from ASEAN, China, and Nepal in exploitative Gulf-style labor programs that are de facto bonded labor and at least back in Vietnam have ties with organized crime. The Japanese Ministry of Labor literally has a formal strategy around recruiting guestworkers for janatorial and cleaning work [0]. This is also why the new government is cracking down on such kinds of abuses [1]. [0] - https://www.mhlw.go.jp/content/11130500/001567071.pdf https://www.mhlw.go.jp/content/11130500/001567071.pdf [1] - https://www.nippon.com/ja/news/yjj2026052200262/ https://www.nippon.com/ja/news/yjj2026052200262/
ecshafer 5mo ago
Why do you think that this is true? Look at the countries by hours worked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a... and there is basically no correlation between birth rates and hours worked. Countries with higher hours worked actually have higher birth rates! [South Korea has a high birth rate for religious groups than non-religious](https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol44/23/44-23.pdf https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol44/23/44-23....) no religion, 1.13; Buddhist, 1.33; Catholic, 1.16; Protestant, 1.28; and “other religion,” 1.20. This is the same country with the same problems for all groups.
- triceratops 5mo ago
  There isn't a massive difference between those numbers tbh.
dartharva 5mo ago
Had this assertion been true India wouldn't have been the most populous country on earth.
dyauspitr 5mo ago
That’s not it at all. The uncomfortable reality is if women work professional jobs you will have a low birth rate. That’s entirely what the data points at. Having kids is almost entirely cultural.
- m463 5mo ago
  Well, related to women getting professional jobs, I've also been told that Japanese women don't want to sign up for life with Japanese men. Women get the coffee, etc.
- triceratops 5mo ago
  It's kinda both? If women work professional jobs too, the men have to work correspondingly fewer hours. Child-rearing is an exhausting battle when both parents work full-time. We need to normalize working part-time for couples, even for professional jobs, even going so far as to make it a cultural non-negotiable. And/or compensate for the lost income. Without the cultural shift, it turns into a prisoner's dilemma. When both partners fight through the exhaustion and work full-time while also raising children, they can outbid everyone else for houses, schools, and cars.
  - dyauspitr 5mo ago
    > the men have to work correspondingly fewer hours. This is categorically not true. The decreased labor cost makes the new norm that both of them have to work full time.
    - triceratops 5mo ago
      You're pointing out the effect of everyone working full-time. I told you what needs to happen if we want a society where women can work outside the home and there's no fertility crisis.
      - dyauspitr 5mo ago
        And what I’m saying is if you want a high birth rate you have to have a culture where women don’t work outside the home and are not empowered which is what the data shows. What you’re suggesting is hopeful conjecture that has many, many counterexamples in today’s world.
maxglute 5mo ago
So far, no amount of pro-natal policies will get you replacement TFR, see wealthy MENA countries where people have make work jobs, extravagant support (nannies etc), and TFR still dropping below replacement 2.1. The reality >2.1 TFR is product of uneducated women without opportunities. As long as women are educated, have agency, body autonomy, in aggregate family formation stays below replacement, even when not resource constrained i.e. women in workforce with opportunity to assume fulltime homemaker rolls (rich family, ample social support) still stops short at replacement TFR. Unless policies regress, the only thing left untried is mixture of extremely pro-natal policies and punitive anti-natal policies, i.e. taxes, opportunities, travel bans to control brain drain, wealth transfers that heavily penalize people with <2 kids. Or accept (mass) immigration, which LBH only black and brown countries have excess bodies. Countries will have to decide whether they hate slow decline more than they hate getting darker or hate their women's rights. Or maybe on long timeline, some scifi shenanigans like test tube babies, shifting sex ratio, i.e. 2:1 female to male ratio brings replacement TFR to 1.5 and all the family structure changes that entails (more single moms, institutional polygamy, functional state orphanages etc), i.e. state will have to be much more active in demographic management. Ultimately, it seems cannot carrot to replacement TFR, maybe able to stick, but no politician in any system really wants to touch that stick.

nine_zeros 5mo ago

[dead]

Nasrudith 5mo ago

Except there is the awkward fact that it is the third world which has higher population growth rates and the nordics have are leaders in low birth rates.

smackeyacky 5mo ago
Why is this fact awkward?
- GroksBarnacles 5mo ago
  They meant awkward in this context because it seemed contrary the theory of the comment above them.
GroksBarnacles 5mo ago
Consider that the world is complex and there's more than one factor. Conservatives cultures have higher birth rates, as do families with lower educational levels. Both are common in the third world. In developed countries, there's constant conversation about how people are being priced out of feeling safe or able to hit traditional milestones like having children. I myself didnt have kids in a marriage only because we couldn't afford it, and I worked around the clock hoping to soon.
no-name-here 5mo ago
Africa has by far the highest rates, and the Nordics are far below replacement, but some of the lowest (and noticeably lower than the Nordics) are South Korea (0.7), Taiwan (0.9), and Singapore (0.9). Replacement would require ~2.1. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-born-per-woman?tab=map https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-born-per-woman?t...

alephnerd 5mo ago

> Make life affordable and give time outside work > Keep insisting on Draconian hours for unlivable pay Average hours worked in Japan are comparable to the UK and significantly lower than the US, Canada, Czechia, and Israel [0], yet they all have significantly higher birth rates than Japan. The issue in Japan and Asia in general is cultural. Women are still expected to both hold a career and do all household chores and have 2 kids. In a lot of cases, jobs will de facto fire women if they have kids because of the cultural expectation that they will leave to have kids and become a housewife. Unsurprisingly, plenty of Japanese women have decided they don't want that life and have decided against marriage. On the other side of the coin, plenty of Japanese women hold off on marriage until they find a partner who can afford to be a primary earner. Unsurprisingly, this means higher educated households in Japan tend to have a higher birth rate than less educated ones [1] as they tend to be more economically stable. The only developed country which has an above replacement TFR is Israel (even non-religious secular Israelis have a replacement TFR), and it's culturally one of the most pro-children societies I've ever been and much more gender egalitarian than other countries. All conversations about TFR and birth rates on HN are from a male point of view and never actually as why women don't want kids or maybe don't want to date a number of HNers/Redditors. It's very incel-like in nature. [0] - https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html [1] - https://weekly-economist.mainichi.jp/articles/20250916/se1/00m/020/007000c https://weekly-economist.mainichi.jp/articles/20250916/se1/0...

like_any_other 5mo ago
> Average hours worked in Japan are comparable to the UK and significantly lower than the US, Canada, Czechia, and Israel How trustworthy is that data? It claims to count only employed people, but for Japan it works out to 6.2 hours work per day, 5 days a week. Yet we all hear stories of workers in Japan having basically no life outside of work. And when people visit Japan, they report things like everything being spotless, and trash containers and trucks being washed daily - labor intensive things. Something doesn't add up.
- alephnerd 5mo ago
  > How trustworthy is that data Very. This is the OECD. > Yet we all hear stories of workers in Japan having basically no life outside of work These anecdotes tend to be decades old. After the labor code changes in 2018; the new generation of Japanese megacorps like SoftBank, Rakuten, Mercari, and LY normalizing Western work culture; and the worker shortage in the 2010s, work hours reduced. > And when people visit Japan, they report things like everything being spotless, and trash containers and trucks being washed daily This is done by guest workers brought in from ASEAN, China, and Nepal in exploitative Gulf-style labor programs that are de facto bonded labor and at least back in Vietnam have ties with organized crime. The Japanese Ministry of Labor literally has a formal strategy around recruiting guestworkers for janatorial and cleaning work [0]. This is also why the new government is cracking down on such kinds of abuses [1]. [0] - https://www.mhlw.go.jp/content/11130500/001567071.pdf https://www.mhlw.go.jp/content/11130500/001567071.pdf [1] - https://www.nippon.com/ja/news/yjj2026052200262/ https://www.nippon.com/ja/news/yjj2026052200262/

ecshafer 5mo ago

Why do you think that this is true? Look at the countries by hours worked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a... and there is basically no correlation between birth rates and hours worked. Countries with higher hours worked actually have higher birth rates! [South Korea has a high birth rate for religious groups than non-religious](https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol44/23/44-23.pdf https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol44/23/44-23....) no religion, 1.13; Buddhist, 1.33; Catholic, 1.16; Protestant, 1.28; and “other religion,” 1.20. This is the same country with the same problems for all groups.

triceratops 5mo ago
There isn't a massive difference between those numbers tbh.

dartharva 5mo ago

Had this assertion been true India wouldn't have been the most populous country on earth.

dyauspitr 5mo ago

That’s not it at all. The uncomfortable reality is if women work professional jobs you will have a low birth rate. That’s entirely what the data points at. Having kids is almost entirely cultural.

m463 5mo ago
Well, related to women getting professional jobs, I've also been told that Japanese women don't want to sign up for life with Japanese men. Women get the coffee, etc.
triceratops 5mo ago
It's kinda both? If women work professional jobs too, the men have to work correspondingly fewer hours. Child-rearing is an exhausting battle when both parents work full-time. We need to normalize working part-time for couples, even for professional jobs, even going so far as to make it a cultural non-negotiable. And/or compensate for the lost income. Without the cultural shift, it turns into a prisoner's dilemma. When both partners fight through the exhaustion and work full-time while also raising children, they can outbid everyone else for houses, schools, and cars.
- dyauspitr 5mo ago
  > the men have to work correspondingly fewer hours. This is categorically not true. The decreased labor cost makes the new norm that both of them have to work full time.
  - triceratops 5mo ago
    You're pointing out the effect of everyone working full-time. I told you what needs to happen if we want a society where women can work outside the home and there's no fertility crisis.
    - dyauspitr 5mo ago
      And what I’m saying is if you want a high birth rate you have to have a culture where women don’t work outside the home and are not empowered which is what the data shows. What you’re suggesting is hopeful conjecture that has many, many counterexamples in today’s world.

maxglute 5mo ago

So far, no amount of pro-natal policies will get you replacement TFR, see wealthy MENA countries where people have make work jobs, extravagant support (nannies etc), and TFR still dropping below replacement 2.1. The reality >2.1 TFR is product of uneducated women without opportunities. As long as women are educated, have agency, body autonomy, in aggregate family formation stays below replacement, even when not resource constrained i.e. women in workforce with opportunity to assume fulltime homemaker rolls (rich family, ample social support) still stops short at replacement TFR. Unless policies regress, the only thing left untried is mixture of extremely pro-natal policies and punitive anti-natal policies, i.e. taxes, opportunities, travel bans to control brain drain, wealth transfers that heavily penalize people with <2 kids. Or accept (mass) immigration, which LBH only black and brown countries have excess bodies. Countries will have to decide whether they hate slow decline more than they hate getting darker or hate their women's rights. Or maybe on long timeline, some scifi shenanigans like test tube babies, shifting sex ratio, i.e. 2:1 female to male ratio brings replacement TFR to 1.5 and all the family structure changes that entails (more single moms, institutional polygamy, functional state orphanages etc), i.e. state will have to be much more active in demographic management. Ultimately, it seems cannot carrot to replacement TFR, maybe able to stick, but no politician in any system really wants to touch that stick.