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I've heard about that, even own the book but didn't read very far yet. I remain skeptic. Maybe it holds for "standard parenting techniques", but I am more inter

by Tichy 14y ago

I've heard about that, even own the book but didn't read very far yet. I remain skeptic. Maybe it holds for "standard parenting techniques", but I am more interested in for example the approach of László Polgár http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r He raised 3 kids to become chess grandmasters - and he announced he would do that before they were born. I don't think he was abusive either. Somehow nobody really wants to talk about that, it is weird. Perhaps it scares people to think that they might be responsible for not making their kids brilliant. And the elite might have an interest in not letting the secret out - somebody has to do the slavery jobs in society, after all. Yeah it is a bit paranoid, but I have become a bit cynical about the setup of our society. Actually it doesn't even have to be an elite trying to hold us down, I think research has shown that people are most happy if other people are not better off than they are, so people are always trying to hold each other down. Of course I wouldn't condone methods like the tiger mum (I think she is basically a criminal), but I don't think Polgar was abusive, for example. I guess if you can influence if your kid is Lutheran or Catholic, there are also other things that might have a bigger impact (even Catholic vs Lutheran might make a big difference, I don't really know? What with different work ethics?). Lutheran vs Catholic or "technical vs liberal arts" and so on? Edit: I discovered Polgar through the book "Bounce" which also talks about other cases for deliberately creating gifted kids http://www.amazon.de/Bounce-myth-talent-power-practice/dp/0007350546/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1353940584&sr=8-3 http://www.amazon.de/Bounce-myth-talent-power-practice/dp/00...

yummyfajitas 14y ago
Caplan's empirical results certainly don't rule out effects from extremely non-standard (e.g., Polgar) parenting techniques. Then again, the anecdotal results of the Polgar family are also quite consistent with his thesis. Laszlo Polgar and his wife are both obsessively ambitious and quite intelligent, and Laszlo even obsesses about chess. Caplan's thesis suggests that if raised by others, the Polgar girls might merely have picked up poker or math rather than chess. If I recall Caplan's book correctly, "technical vs liberal arts" is suggested by twin studies to be primarily genetically determined. The separately raised twin of a civil engineer is far more likely to be an electrical engineer than to work in HR, for example. As for Lutheran vs Catholic, it's certainly extremely important - if your kids get it wrong, they will be tortured in hell forever.
- Tichy 14y ago
  The interesting thing about Polgar is that he announced he would raise gifted kids before he even had them - he didn't even have a wife then, instead he looked for a wife willing to do the experiment. He wasn't obsessed about chess, he just picked it because it was easy to measure success. He then studied it himself so that he could teach his kids. Sure, it is still an anecdote, but he repeated it three times with his children. It seems incredibly lucky if all of his children just happened to be super-gifted and would have become prodigies in any discipline just because of their genes, and him knowing they would be like that before they were born.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    This doesn't dispute what the parent said though: Polgar is obviously going to be selecting for intelligence when choosing a spouse.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      OK, true, but not every intelligent child becomes brilliant in something.
dagw 14y ago
nobody really wants to talk about that I don't know whom you're listening to, but it seems to me that everybody is talking about it. To what extent you should 'pressure' kids to pursue an activity you believe will be beneficial vs letting them find their own way is one of the big parenting debates. Perhaps it scares people to think that they might be responsible for not making their kids brilliant. I think it's more that most parents aren't interested in making their children "brilliant" in the sense of being amazingly good at one very niche endeavor (although you don't have to look far to find plenty of parents who are). Most parents seem to prefer attempting to raise more rounded and well balanced children.
- Tichy 14y ago
  That assumes pressure is the way to raise gifted kids. What I mean is nobody seems to look into proven ways to "produce" gifted kids. If you google for Polgar, only few things come up, mostly chess related, which isn't the point at all. His book is out of print, not sure if it was ever even translated to English (he is Hungarian). That is what I mean by nobody seems to want to discuss it. Not only Polgar, also the other examples I read about in "Bounce" (for example there was apparently a Russian "factory" for tennis stars). Tiger mom made a splash, but I think that was because people wish they could just force their kids to be brilliant. I actually don't think "my kid played piano in [some famous concert hall]" is worth destroying the soul of your kid for. But what if the some technique (non-soul destroying) could be used to raise people who are brilliant in fighting cancer or programming social networks? You are right, everybody worries about making their kids succeed, but people don't seem to look at the right aspects of it. They just follow the path layed out by schools, to put more pressure on rote learning.

by Tichy 14y ago

yummyfajitas 14y ago

Caplan's empirical results certainly don't rule out effects from extremely non-standard (e.g., Polgar) parenting techniques. Then again, the anecdotal results of the Polgar family are also quite consistent with his thesis. Laszlo Polgar and his wife are both obsessively ambitious and quite intelligent, and Laszlo even obsesses about chess. Caplan's thesis suggests that if raised by others, the Polgar girls might merely have picked up poker or math rather than chess. If I recall Caplan's book correctly, "technical vs liberal arts" is suggested by twin studies to be primarily genetically determined. The separately raised twin of a civil engineer is far more likely to be an electrical engineer than to work in HR, for example. As for Lutheran vs Catholic, it's certainly extremely important - if your kids get it wrong, they will be tortured in hell forever.

Tichy 14y ago
The interesting thing about Polgar is that he announced he would raise gifted kids before he even had them - he didn't even have a wife then, instead he looked for a wife willing to do the experiment. He wasn't obsessed about chess, he just picked it because it was easy to measure success. He then studied it himself so that he could teach his kids. Sure, it is still an anecdote, but he repeated it three times with his children. It seems incredibly lucky if all of his children just happened to be super-gifted and would have become prodigies in any discipline just because of their genes, and him knowing they would be like that before they were born.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  This doesn't dispute what the parent said though: Polgar is obviously going to be selecting for intelligence when choosing a spouse.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    OK, true, but not every intelligent child becomes brilliant in something.

dagw 14y ago

nobody really wants to talk about that I don't know whom you're listening to, but it seems to me that everybody is talking about it. To what extent you should 'pressure' kids to pursue an activity you believe will be beneficial vs letting them find their own way is one of the big parenting debates. Perhaps it scares people to think that they might be responsible for not making their kids brilliant. I think it's more that most parents aren't interested in making their children "brilliant" in the sense of being amazingly good at one very niche endeavor (although you don't have to look far to find plenty of parents who are). Most parents seem to prefer attempting to raise more rounded and well balanced children.

Tichy 14y ago
That assumes pressure is the way to raise gifted kids. What I mean is nobody seems to look into proven ways to "produce" gifted kids. If you google for Polgar, only few things come up, mostly chess related, which isn't the point at all. His book is out of print, not sure if it was ever even translated to English (he is Hungarian). That is what I mean by nobody seems to want to discuss it. Not only Polgar, also the other examples I read about in "Bounce" (for example there was apparently a Russian "factory" for tennis stars). Tiger mom made a splash, but I think that was because people wish they could just force their kids to be brilliant. I actually don't think "my kid played piano in [some famous concert hall]" is worth destroying the soul of your kid for. But what if the some technique (non-soul destroying) could be used to raise people who are brilliant in fighting cancer or programming social networks? You are right, everybody worries about making their kids succeed, but people don't seem to look at the right aspects of it. They just follow the path layed out by schools, to put more pressure on rote learning.