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I think it's less frowned upon here in Europe. Who want's to miss 10-15 years of her life anyway ? All the personal projects, travels, parties, etc. As the ar

I think it's less frowned upon here in Europe. Who want's to miss 10-15 years of her life anyway ? All the personal projects, travels, parties, etc. As the article says, we spend most of our live trying to avoid it. So now, to have a child is an active decision. You go out of your way, it doesn't just happen. So it must be a project that you should be able to justify, a rational decision. Show me your decision grid, advantages/drawbacks, etc. No really, what is the point at the individual level ? (I understand the point at the species level, but we don't act at the species level). Pushing another human in an already overcrowded planet ? Forcing him to pay for you when you will be old ? The best thing you can do for your child is not having it.

Tichy 14y ago
After a while the travels and parties get old... Besides, if you really wanted to, you could still do all that with kids. It's true that you can't really rationally decide to have a kid, because you can not know beforehand what it is like. In the same vein, why do people have pets? Seems just as irrational... But why - why live at all? What is the point of anything? As for the overcrowded planet, most of the overcrowding seems to be done in other countries. In my country population count is falling. Having kids seems like a pretty fundamental human right, so why should I give that up just because some other people can't control themselves (and I know it is a more complex issue)? Are you sure that you haven't been brainwashed? Some people benefit if you believe that you shouldn't have children. Meanwhile the people owning the TV stations and newspapers probably have 20 kids with different women, who will happily take up the space you are not occupying with your own children.
equalarrow 14y ago
Heh, I used to think like that. When my wife and I met we were like, "kids? no f-ing way". But then we decided we wanted one. We could have gone thru life as the two person 'family'. We could have kept building our income, buying more things, striving for that next 'personal goal'. Don't get me wrong, we still do that to a point, but having a kid - from two no kids people - is the best thing we've ever done. It's also the most difficult thing. We're sleep deprived, irritable, spaced out, and longing for free time. But through all this, we still say it's worth it. Worth it because we are part of life. We're all someone's child and while having children isn't for everyone, I feel like becoming the teacher is the most important thing I'll ever do. My wife's step-father just had his dad pass away this Aug - both his parents live with him on the bottom floor of his building. Now it's just him and his mom and his girlfriend. He's definitely 'paying for them' as they're on their way out. But I'm sure if you asked him if this was a problem, he would tell you absolutely not. I don't see raising our son as missing my life - I've had my share of studying philosophy, succeeding, failing, living, etc. I'm now ready to put that into practice and help someone else learn what life's about (sure, from my pov, absolutely), to guide them. This is the best thing I can do for my child; strive to provide a stable, nurturing environment. There are so many amazing things in life and I think it's a gift to experience it. I think it's easy to just focus on the negative or the reasons of why not to. I really do wish everyone could have an awesome life. I think that's how it's meant to be lived - as awesome as possible. So, kids aren't for everyone. I don't feel like it's an exclusive club. But I do feel like it's a natural part of life and I'm glad I'm getting to experience it.
liotier 14y ago
Kids are fun. I'm getting my fifth one (including one adopted) and it never gets old. Think about the most challenging complex corporate information systems project you ever owned and pulled off, or think about the best work of art you ever produced... Only ten times more fun and ten times more challenging. Other personal projects definitely suffer, but that personal project dwarfs them all. There are many ways to contribute to shaping the world into something you believe being the right direction. Kids are one of them. Not having them is rational too but, if you believe in yourself, you may want to pass some of that on to the next generations directly. Making an impact by other means is good too, but nothing quite equals the primal satisfaction of leading your own clan into the future. And before anyone mentions, I'm an atheist - so there are no religious motives here. In France, having kids may not be the communal project it once was, but nowadays with crazy good medical support, day care, kindergarten, schools and all sorts of benefits, I cannot possibly claim that our ancestors had it any easier. It does take an awful lot of time, but with the right organization it is the most rewarding thing you'll ever do. Just don't overdo it and you'll be a happy parent.
kokey 14y ago
It's less frowned upon in wealthy societies in general. Here in London the average age for first time mothers is deep into their 30s. It is about time when you've had your long travels around the world, and years of parties. I don't think the expectation here exists that young people are going to look after old people, unlike the developing world.
- jobigoud 14y ago
  About young people looking after the old; Here in France it's not an expectation, it's the law. My grand mother needs to go to a retirement home, her retirement pension doesn't cover the full cost. My mother and I are required by law to cover the rest (at least that part that is not paid for by the public health system). I'll gladly do it, but who am I to impose that to another person ?
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >I'll gladly do it, but who am I to impose that to another person ? The one that gave the same "other person" his life, and 18 years of house, food, education and care?
whyleyc 14y ago
Your comment presents just one way of thinking: Who want's to miss 10-15 years of her life anyway ? All the personal projects, travels, parties" Life as an individual is just one way to live your life. There are a multitude of others - as a family (with children), as a partner, as a mentor, a dropout, a radical - having children will close some doors, but open many others. It isn't correct to assume there is one correct path. So it must be a project that you should be able to justify, a rational decision. Show me your decision grid, advantages/drawbacks It is probably sacrilegious to say so on HN, but not every decision in life can or should be calibrated on the basis of pure logic with a positive and negative column. It is (of course) eminently sensible to think about what kind of life you could provide for a child, but there is also a sense in which having a child is an adventure into the unknown - In the same way you wouldn't review crime statistics for every country in the world and decide to only travel to the safest spots. What is the point at the individual level ? Companionship, fun, adventure, challenge and delight all spring to mind. Pushing another human in an already overcrowded planet I thought you said that we don't act at the species level ?

Tichy 14y ago

After a while the travels and parties get old... Besides, if you really wanted to, you could still do all that with kids. It's true that you can't really rationally decide to have a kid, because you can not know beforehand what it is like. In the same vein, why do people have pets? Seems just as irrational... But why - why live at all? What is the point of anything? As for the overcrowded planet, most of the overcrowding seems to be done in other countries. In my country population count is falling. Having kids seems like a pretty fundamental human right, so why should I give that up just because some other people can't control themselves (and I know it is a more complex issue)? Are you sure that you haven't been brainwashed? Some people benefit if you believe that you shouldn't have children. Meanwhile the people owning the TV stations and newspapers probably have 20 kids with different women, who will happily take up the space you are not occupying with your own children.

equalarrow 14y ago

Heh, I used to think like that. When my wife and I met we were like, "kids? no f-ing way". But then we decided we wanted one. We could have gone thru life as the two person 'family'. We could have kept building our income, buying more things, striving for that next 'personal goal'. Don't get me wrong, we still do that to a point, but having a kid - from two no kids people - is the best thing we've ever done. It's also the most difficult thing. We're sleep deprived, irritable, spaced out, and longing for free time. But through all this, we still say it's worth it. Worth it because we are part of life. We're all someone's child and while having children isn't for everyone, I feel like becoming the teacher is the most important thing I'll ever do. My wife's step-father just had his dad pass away this Aug - both his parents live with him on the bottom floor of his building. Now it's just him and his mom and his girlfriend. He's definitely 'paying for them' as they're on their way out. But I'm sure if you asked him if this was a problem, he would tell you absolutely not. I don't see raising our son as missing my life - I've had my share of studying philosophy, succeeding, failing, living, etc. I'm now ready to put that into practice and help someone else learn what life's about (sure, from my pov, absolutely), to guide them. This is the best thing I can do for my child; strive to provide a stable, nurturing environment. There are so many amazing things in life and I think it's a gift to experience it. I think it's easy to just focus on the negative or the reasons of why not to. I really do wish everyone could have an awesome life. I think that's how it's meant to be lived - as awesome as possible. So, kids aren't for everyone. I don't feel like it's an exclusive club. But I do feel like it's a natural part of life and I'm glad I'm getting to experience it.

liotier 14y ago

Kids are fun. I'm getting my fifth one (including one adopted) and it never gets old. Think about the most challenging complex corporate information systems project you ever owned and pulled off, or think about the best work of art you ever produced... Only ten times more fun and ten times more challenging. Other personal projects definitely suffer, but that personal project dwarfs them all. There are many ways to contribute to shaping the world into something you believe being the right direction. Kids are one of them. Not having them is rational too but, if you believe in yourself, you may want to pass some of that on to the next generations directly. Making an impact by other means is good too, but nothing quite equals the primal satisfaction of leading your own clan into the future. And before anyone mentions, I'm an atheist - so there are no religious motives here. In France, having kids may not be the communal project it once was, but nowadays with crazy good medical support, day care, kindergarten, schools and all sorts of benefits, I cannot possibly claim that our ancestors had it any easier. It does take an awful lot of time, but with the right organization it is the most rewarding thing you'll ever do. Just don't overdo it and you'll be a happy parent.

kokey 14y ago

It's less frowned upon in wealthy societies in general. Here in London the average age for first time mothers is deep into their 30s. It is about time when you've had your long travels around the world, and years of parties. I don't think the expectation here exists that young people are going to look after old people, unlike the developing world.

jobigoud 14y ago
About young people looking after the old; Here in France it's not an expectation, it's the law. My grand mother needs to go to a retirement home, her retirement pension doesn't cover the full cost. My mother and I are required by law to cover the rest (at least that part that is not paid for by the public health system). I'll gladly do it, but who am I to impose that to another person ?
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >I'll gladly do it, but who am I to impose that to another person ? The one that gave the same "other person" his life, and 18 years of house, food, education and care?

whyleyc 14y ago

Your comment presents just one way of thinking: Who want's to miss 10-15 years of her life anyway ? All the personal projects, travels, parties" Life as an individual is just one way to live your life. There are a multitude of others - as a family (with children), as a partner, as a mentor, a dropout, a radical - having children will close some doors, but open many others. It isn't correct to assume there is one correct path. So it must be a project that you should be able to justify, a rational decision. Show me your decision grid, advantages/drawbacks It is probably sacrilegious to say so on HN, but not every decision in life can or should be calibrated on the basis of pure logic with a positive and negative column. It is (of course) eminently sensible to think about what kind of life you could provide for a child, but there is also a sense in which having a child is an adventure into the unknown - In the same way you wouldn't review crime statistics for every country in the world and decide to only travel to the safest spots. What is the point at the individual level ? Companionship, fun, adventure, challenge and delight all spring to mind. Pushing another human in an already overcrowded planet I thought you said that we don't act at the species level ?