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And that's commendable, but what if your brother would not have had time for doing cross country in high school because he had to care for his siblings as your

by 9dev 4mo ago

And that's commendable, but what if your brother would not have had time for doing cross country in high school because he had to care for his siblings as your parents were poor and working double shifts? Or so heavily indebted due to a cancer therapy that he couldn't afford running shoes? > people without such advantages aren't given special accomodation They are not - but I'm specifically talking about the reverse case, where people start with extra disadvantages that cause them to start even further behind their peers. Curiously, everyone seems to understand the purpose of handicaps in Golf, but it's an outrageously leftist concept in social contexts.

JCTheDenthog 4mo ago
>And that's commendable, but what if your brother would not have had time for doing cross country in high school because he had to care for his siblings as your parents were poor and working double shifts? Or so heavily indebted due to a cancer therapy that he couldn't afford running shoes? That's awful and unfortunate, but he still shouldn't have an extra hour shaved from his half-marathon times over his competitors, because the half-marathon isn't measuring "How fast could you have run this in an alternate universe where you had no disadvantages". It's measuring "How fast can you run this, full stop." Poor Black kids who had uninvolved parents that didn't help them to learn math better aren't helped by affirmative action because you're just setting them up for failure in the actual college level math classes they end up in (and are woefully unprepared for). The SAT measures how capable you are at math because that's what matters for college, not how capable you might have been in a different reality. >Curiously, everyone seems to understand the purpose of handicaps in Golf, but it's an outrageously leftist concept in social contexts. If I try to join the PGA tour, they aren't going to consider my handicap.
- ceejayoz 4mo ago
  Those are certainly shitty ways to ensure equity. Why are they what you jump to? What if we did a better job helping parents with childcare and healthcare?
  - JCTheDenthog 4mo ago
    >Those are certainly shitty ways to ensure equity. Why are they what you jump to? Because they're effectively what proponents of equity have implemented in practice: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/opinion/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/opinion/white-students-un... >What if we did a better job helping parents with childcare and healthcare? I mean we've already spent trillions on such efforts over the last half century, and the effects have been pretty minimal (and in some cases I'd argue outright counterproductive). See Abbott Districts in New Jersey, the Head Start preschool program, subsidized daycare in every state, etc.
    - ceejayoz 4mo ago
      > Because they're effectively what proponents of equity have implemented in practice… So you agree with the goal of equity, but not the approaches taken so far?
      - JCTheDenthog 4mo ago
        [flagged]
      - zahlman 4mo ago
        Clearly none of this has anything to do with GP's own position. The argument is that the equity proponents are explicitly targeting "equality of outcome", explicitly taking measures that aim to establish this, explicitly using metrics based on this, and being intellectually dishonest about it.

by 9dev 4mo ago

JCTheDenthog 4mo ago

>And that's commendable, but what if your brother would not have had time for doing cross country in high school because he had to care for his siblings as your parents were poor and working double shifts? Or so heavily indebted due to a cancer therapy that he couldn't afford running shoes? That's awful and unfortunate, but he still shouldn't have an extra hour shaved from his half-marathon times over his competitors, because the half-marathon isn't measuring "How fast could you have run this in an alternate universe where you had no disadvantages". It's measuring "How fast can you run this, full stop." Poor Black kids who had uninvolved parents that didn't help them to learn math better aren't helped by affirmative action because you're just setting them up for failure in the actual college level math classes they end up in (and are woefully unprepared for). The SAT measures how capable you are at math because that's what matters for college, not how capable you might have been in a different reality. >Curiously, everyone seems to understand the purpose of handicaps in Golf, but it's an outrageously leftist concept in social contexts. If I try to join the PGA tour, they aren't going to consider my handicap.

ceejayoz 4mo ago
Those are certainly shitty ways to ensure equity. Why are they what you jump to? What if we did a better job helping parents with childcare and healthcare?
- JCTheDenthog 4mo ago
  >Those are certainly shitty ways to ensure equity. Why are they what you jump to? Because they're effectively what proponents of equity have implemented in practice: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/opinion/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/opinion/white-students-un... >What if we did a better job helping parents with childcare and healthcare? I mean we've already spent trillions on such efforts over the last half century, and the effects have been pretty minimal (and in some cases I'd argue outright counterproductive). See Abbott Districts in New Jersey, the Head Start preschool program, subsidized daycare in every state, etc.
  - ceejayoz 4mo ago
    > Because they're effectively what proponents of equity have implemented in practice… So you agree with the goal of equity, but not the approaches taken so far?
    - JCTheDenthog 4mo ago
      [flagged]
    - zahlman 4mo ago
      Clearly none of this has anything to do with GP's own position. The argument is that the equity proponents are explicitly targeting "equality of outcome", explicitly taking measures that aim to establish this, explicitly using metrics based on this, and being intellectually dishonest about it.