4 ms·

> Ukraine was essentially invaded because they became too friendly with NATO (and hence america). Also because it was considering joining the EU. The Russians

by graemep 5mo ago

> Ukraine was essentially invaded because they became too friendly with NATO (and hence america). Also because it was considering joining the EU. The Russians threatened at least as early as 2008 that they would invade Ukraine if they did either. They actually invaded Ukraine in 2014 and captured a lot of territory. Why did the US and their European allies not plan for the Russians doing what they had threatened to do and had actually done in the past? It seems incompetent.

znort_ 5mo ago
[flagged]
- ethbr1 5mo ago
  > if you're referring to the "green men" in crimea: those were the ukranian (but culturally russian) garrissoned troops If you want to believe that Russia had no military forces in Ukraine before 2022, then I have a bridge to sell you. Or do you think Russia is in the habit of randomly transporting air defense systems with Russian crew through different nation-states they have nothing to do with? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Findings_of_the_joint_investigation_team https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Fi...
  - znort_ 5mo ago
    > If you want to believe that Russia had no military forces in Ukraine before 2022 that's not what i said, and supporting a warring faction doesn't really qualify as "invasion" nor "taking territory". also, i would recommend very strict skepticism about politically sensitive content on wikipedia. it can still be useful for general timelines, but a simple check at the sources (when there are any) will reveal they tend to be overwhelmingly one-sided. it's fine if you want to learn about, say, birds, engines or stars, though.
    - mopsi 5mo ago
      The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has established that there was no genuine separatism in Eastern Ukraine in 2014. From the get-go, these were operatives of Russian military and special services, or people under their direct control. Girkin, one of the main leaders of Russian forces in Ukraine, has confirmed the same: there was no grassroots action; it was them who started the war in 2014. Removing insignia from uniforms does not make it any less of a foreign invasion. ECHR's lengthy verdict on the responsibility of the MH-17 shootdown lays out all the relevant facts.
      - znort_ 5mo ago
        without even commenting the evidence considered (mainly 'osint' claims) that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination (wether organized or not). it was clearly a political ruling. you know, as an european over sixty that actually voted to join the eu i have long learned that ... european courts are full of shit, as are most of the institutions of the "international rules based order" btw. i know, that's the best we have. which means we're fucked. but funnily enough and back to the question: that ruling not even suggests the concepts of "invasion" and "territiorial gains". https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/#{%22fulltext%22:[%22\%22Ukraine%20and%20the%20Netherlands%20v.%20Russia\%22%22],%22documentcollectionid2%22:[%22GRANDCHAMBER%22,%22CHAMBER%22],%22itemid%22:[%22001-244292%22]} https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/#{%22fulltext%22:[%22\%22Ukraine%... one has to wonder... if donbas didn't really want to secede (or didn't know how), and it was all russian troops ... why would kiev shell residential areas in donetsk with massive civilian casualties in july of 2014? so they would actually have a reason to secede? doesn't that court full of shit have a case for that?
        mopsi 5mo ago
        > that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination Because there are no grounds for it. The right to self-determination is the right of an ethnicity to self-govern. The people of Donbas are not a distinct ethnicity, but almost entirely either Ukrainians or Russians. That's a very clear-cut case. > if donbas didn't really want to secede (or didn't know how) There was no secession movement. Opinion polls placed secession in the "fringe" category. More people in Texas support secession than did in the eastern regions of Ukraine.
- graemep 5mo ago
  > russian invasion started in february 2022. 2014 was the https://web.archive.org/web/20140825144115/https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-plans-billion-boost-defense-spending-25102664 https://web.archive.org/web/20140825144115/https://abcnews.g... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226 > ousting of the legitimate government, secession of crimea and donbas, ukraine declaring donbas secessionist to be terrorists and starting a bombing campaign and the civil w That is the Russian argument justifying the invasion. its irrelevant to whether an invasion occurred or not
  - alt_422568 5mo ago
    There's even a section Wikipedia about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Russian_propaganda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Russian_... Their final paragraph is straight up conspiracy theory. Little wonder they grumble about Wikipedia in their other comment, rather than linking to a serious source. Tough to do that when no credible sources support your absurd claims.
funnym0nk3y 5mo ago
Because since then Russia has threatened nuclear war a dozen times. Russias threats are worth almost nothing.
- graemep 5mo ago
  On the other hand Russia has threatened to invade places and has done so. Georgia, Ukraine in 2014, etc.

by graemep 5mo ago

znort_ 5mo ago

[flagged]

ethbr1 5mo ago
> if you're referring to the "green men" in crimea: those were the ukranian (but culturally russian) garrissoned troops If you want to believe that Russia had no military forces in Ukraine before 2022, then I have a bridge to sell you. Or do you think Russia is in the habit of randomly transporting air defense systems with Russian crew through different nation-states they have nothing to do with? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Findings_of_the_joint_investigation_team https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Fi...
- znort_ 5mo ago
  > If you want to believe that Russia had no military forces in Ukraine before 2022 that's not what i said, and supporting a warring faction doesn't really qualify as "invasion" nor "taking territory". also, i would recommend very strict skepticism about politically sensitive content on wikipedia. it can still be useful for general timelines, but a simple check at the sources (when there are any) will reveal they tend to be overwhelmingly one-sided. it's fine if you want to learn about, say, birds, engines or stars, though.
  - mopsi 5mo ago
    The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has established that there was no genuine separatism in Eastern Ukraine in 2014. From the get-go, these were operatives of Russian military and special services, or people under their direct control. Girkin, one of the main leaders of Russian forces in Ukraine, has confirmed the same: there was no grassroots action; it was them who started the war in 2014. Removing insignia from uniforms does not make it any less of a foreign invasion. ECHR's lengthy verdict on the responsibility of the MH-17 shootdown lays out all the relevant facts.
    - znort_ 5mo ago
      without even commenting the evidence considered (mainly 'osint' claims) that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination (wether organized or not). it was clearly a political ruling. you know, as an european over sixty that actually voted to join the eu i have long learned that ... european courts are full of shit, as are most of the institutions of the "international rules based order" btw. i know, that's the best we have. which means we're fucked. but funnily enough and back to the question: that ruling not even suggests the concepts of "invasion" and "territiorial gains". https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/#{%22fulltext%22:[%22\%22Ukraine%20and%20the%20Netherlands%20v.%20Russia\%22%22],%22documentcollectionid2%22:[%22GRANDCHAMBER%22,%22CHAMBER%22],%22itemid%22:[%22001-244292%22]} https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/#{%22fulltext%22:[%22\%22Ukraine%... one has to wonder... if donbas didn't really want to secede (or didn't know how), and it was all russian troops ... why would kiev shell residential areas in donetsk with massive civilian casualties in july of 2014? so they would actually have a reason to secede? doesn't that court full of shit have a case for that?
      - mopsi 5mo ago
        > that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination Because there are no grounds for it. The right to self-determination is the right of an ethnicity to self-govern. The people of Donbas are not a distinct ethnicity, but almost entirely either Ukrainians or Russians. That's a very clear-cut case. > if donbas didn't really want to secede (or didn't know how) There was no secession movement. Opinion polls placed secession in the "fringe" category. More people in Texas support secession than did in the eastern regions of Ukraine.
graemep 5mo ago
> russian invasion started in february 2022. 2014 was the https://web.archive.org/web/20140825144115/https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-plans-billion-boost-defense-spending-25102664 https://web.archive.org/web/20140825144115/https://abcnews.g... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226 > ousting of the legitimate government, secession of crimea and donbas, ukraine declaring donbas secessionist to be terrorists and starting a bombing campaign and the civil w That is the Russian argument justifying the invasion. its irrelevant to whether an invasion occurred or not
- alt_422568 5mo ago
  There's even a section Wikipedia about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Russian_propaganda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Russian_... Their final paragraph is straight up conspiracy theory. Little wonder they grumble about Wikipedia in their other comment, rather than linking to a serious source. Tough to do that when no credible sources support your absurd claims.

funnym0nk3y 5mo ago

Because since then Russia has threatened nuclear war a dozen times. Russias threats are worth almost nothing.

graemep 5mo ago
On the other hand Russia has threatened to invade places and has done so. Georgia, Ukraine in 2014, etc.