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Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence? There is not a single scientific study confirming their existence, nor are there testable hypotheses w

Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence? There is not a single scientific study confirming their existence, nor are there testable hypotheses with which we could confirm them. In other words, it is superstition. Worse, it's blatant quackery.

Alex3917 14y ago
"Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence?" Firsthand experience. Saying it's quackery is like saying that colors are superstition and quackery because you can't prove their existence. Anyone (or certainly the vast majority of people) can experience these phenomena, if you haven't yet then it shows lack of intellectual curiosity and initiative. As it stands though scientists are currently working on cataloging the various states from traditional buddhist literature and then cross referencing those with various other traditions and teachers. This should be done in another couple years, and once that's done this will enable more and better quality research into what people actually experience while meditating or doing yoga. Everyone I talked to at the meditation retreat I did had the same sorts of experiences though, so I don't think there is really much doubt about what further research will find.
- floody-berry 14y ago
  Science knows what color is, how we perceive color, and it is trivial to show that someone can or cannot see color. Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on.
  - Alex3917 14y ago
    "Science knows what color is, how we perceive color" As long as you're willing to accept that step 2 is "and then a miracle occurs." "Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on." Chakras, qi, energy, etc. are just names for phenomena you can experience. These phenomena may or may not be supernatural, but there is not necessarily anything supernatural needed for them to exist.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "Chakras, qi, energy, etc. are just names for phenomena you can experience. These phenomena may or may not be supernatural, but there is not necessarily anything supernatural needed for them to exist." The experiential is a real thing, but it does not necessarily have any greater meaning or value. "Energy" is felt, but that does not mean that it is any more valuable to healing than the hallucinations of a drug, or ecstatic religious experience.
- lobster_johnson 14y ago
  You are describing subjective experiences. We can all agree that subjective experiences exist and they may have psychological value, and even health benefits (stress reduction, psychosomatic reactions, placebo response). To extend this to a method of explicitly physiologically-targeted treatment underpinned by a nonsensical, non-scientific biological framework, however, is where the quackery enters the picture. To give an example: Treating stress by teaching a person meditation is a rational course of action because we know that meditation affects neurological processes in the brain. Teaching meditation by saying (I'm making this up) it unclogs ghosts in your energy field is quackery because it offers a nonsensical explanation as well as hinges on metaphysical phenomena that cannot be tested nor disproven because the terms (ghosts, energy field) involved are not physical.
  - Alex3917 14y ago
    "To extend this to a method of explicitly physiologically-targeted treatment underpinned by a nonsensical, non-scientific biological framework, however, is where the quackery enters the picture." No argument there.

Alex3917 14y ago

"Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence?" Firsthand experience. Saying it's quackery is like saying that colors are superstition and quackery because you can't prove their existence. Anyone (or certainly the vast majority of people) can experience these phenomena, if you haven't yet then it shows lack of intellectual curiosity and initiative. As it stands though scientists are currently working on cataloging the various states from traditional buddhist literature and then cross referencing those with various other traditions and teachers. This should be done in another couple years, and once that's done this will enable more and better quality research into what people actually experience while meditating or doing yoga. Everyone I talked to at the meditation retreat I did had the same sorts of experiences though, so I don't think there is really much doubt about what further research will find.

floody-berry 14y ago
Science knows what color is, how we perceive color, and it is trivial to show that someone can or cannot see color. Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  "Science knows what color is, how we perceive color" As long as you're willing to accept that step 2 is "and then a miracle occurs." "Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on." Chakras, qi, energy, etc. are just names for phenomena you can experience. These phenomena may or may not be supernatural, but there is not necessarily anything supernatural needed for them to exist.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "Chakras, qi, energy, etc. are just names for phenomena you can experience. These phenomena may or may not be supernatural, but there is not necessarily anything supernatural needed for them to exist." The experiential is a real thing, but it does not necessarily have any greater meaning or value. "Energy" is felt, but that does not mean that it is any more valuable to healing than the hallucinations of a drug, or ecstatic religious experience.
lobster_johnson 14y ago
You are describing subjective experiences. We can all agree that subjective experiences exist and they may have psychological value, and even health benefits (stress reduction, psychosomatic reactions, placebo response). To extend this to a method of explicitly physiologically-targeted treatment underpinned by a nonsensical, non-scientific biological framework, however, is where the quackery enters the picture. To give an example: Treating stress by teaching a person meditation is a rational course of action because we know that meditation affects neurological processes in the brain. Teaching meditation by saying (I'm making this up) it unclogs ghosts in your energy field is quackery because it offers a nonsensical explanation as well as hinges on metaphysical phenomena that cannot be tested nor disproven because the terms (ghosts, energy field) involved are not physical.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  "To extend this to a method of explicitly physiologically-targeted treatment underpinned by a nonsensical, non-scientific biological framework, however, is where the quackery enters the picture." No argument there.