3 ms·

I don't think this is the reality. It is part of it, but people get paid different salaries, why? Some are more productive than others. Aside from leadership's

by cm11 4mo ago

I don't think this is the reality. It is part of it, but people get paid different salaries, why? Some are more productive than others. Aside from leadership's (and society's) biased ability to determine value, these people theoretically get more because they contribute more.

NooneAtAll3 4mo ago
while productivity is correlated with salary, generally the ability to ask for a raise, to defend your pay and office politics navigation would be more impactful on average
komali2 4mo ago
In my experience, productivity effects on salary is a rounding error. There are only two significant contributing factors for salary: 1. Your home address and 2. Your visa status Productivity might get you a 5k raise more over your colleague on a 160k salary. Meanwhile the same engineer in Taiwan is more productive than you and getting paid 40k while working for the same company on the same product, and putting in more hours to boot.
- tstrimple 4mo ago
  Or the engineer could be working for a certain company in South Korea and get a bonus multiple times their annual salary because of their union contracts tied to profitability.
tstrimple 4mo ago
This is a naive view. Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with. If they think they can hire someone “equivalent” according to HR for less money they will often do so. Actual contribution means nothing unless you’re willing to walk away. I’ve literally seen an intern with less than one year of experience when hired into a company where a senior architect who has been at the same firm for 16 years made over $40k less than them. The former intern was great. I had no real complaints. And he was more ambitious than the senior architect. But he stayed with the company two more years before jumping ship for another significant pay raise while the senior architect is still there making about the same amount as he did five years ago. It doesn’t matter how much value the senior architect delivers if he doesn’t demand his increase in pay.
- Aurornis 4mo ago
  > Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with. Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with. Companies aren't doing anything unusual or evil. This is literally just how a market works. A lot of people forget that the job market is a market. Or they wish it wasn't a market and they could block out competition for themselves so companies had to pay them more (at the expense of those excluded)
  - tstrimple 4mo ago
    > Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with. Bullshit cop out. I regularly spend more than the “average” on technology because I’ve been burned by the bottom of the barrel too many times. Maybe you cheap out on all of your purchases, but it says nothing about “everyone”. The fact that you claim “everyone” has as few moral qualms as you is telling. But not in a way that reflects everyone. Just short sighted selfish assholes.
    - Aurornis 4mo ago
      > Bullshit cop out. I regularly spend more than the “average” on technology because I’ve been burned by the bottom of the barrel too many times. You missed the part about equal service. Please read my whole comment, not just snap responses to the first line. Obviously nobody is hiring the person who has the lowest salary demands and ignoring their qualifications.
  - Timon3 4mo ago
    This might be fair if the rules of the market were static, but companies are actively using their power and influence to affect the market rules so they can get away with paying workers less and less - that's not to mention collusion and corruption. Just because this has been normalized doesn't mean it's not evil. If a healthcare company introduces processes that deny people life-saving interventions just to funnel more money to their shareholders, that company and its leadership are thoroughly evil. I'd also like to add that I often pay more for things than I could get away with. I try to prefer locally owned businesses when possible, and if they have fair prices and give me good advice I often pay a bit extra (essentially a "tip" for the business) to support them.
cm11 4mo ago
I feel a bit like some have misconstrued my comment. I reread and can see how it could be read as quality of work being ALL that matters. Indeed, salaries capture many things and many bullshit ones. I don't exactly think what I wrote precludes that racism, sexism, nepotism, or cozying up to your boss factor more than they should, but I can see it. If I had another shot, maybe I'd reframe the provocation as "by and large Senior Xs make more than Junior Xs within the same company within the same geo, why?" Perhaps the existence of senior/junior titling at all is based on some sense of output/pay correlation.

by cm11 4mo ago

NooneAtAll3 4mo ago

while productivity is correlated with salary, generally the ability to ask for a raise, to defend your pay and office politics navigation would be more impactful on average

komali2 4mo ago

In my experience, productivity effects on salary is a rounding error. There are only two significant contributing factors for salary: 1. Your home address and 2. Your visa status Productivity might get you a 5k raise more over your colleague on a 160k salary. Meanwhile the same engineer in Taiwan is more productive than you and getting paid 40k while working for the same company on the same product, and putting in more hours to boot.

tstrimple 4mo ago
Or the engineer could be working for a certain company in South Korea and get a bonus multiple times their annual salary because of their union contracts tied to profitability.

tstrimple 4mo ago

This is a naive view. Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with. If they think they can hire someone “equivalent” according to HR for less money they will often do so. Actual contribution means nothing unless you’re willing to walk away. I’ve literally seen an intern with less than one year of experience when hired into a company where a senior architect who has been at the same firm for 16 years made over $40k less than them. The former intern was great. I had no real complaints. And he was more ambitious than the senior architect. But he stayed with the company two more years before jumping ship for another significant pay raise while the senior architect is still there making about the same amount as he did five years ago. It doesn’t matter how much value the senior architect delivers if he doesn’t demand his increase in pay.

Aurornis 4mo ago
> Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with. Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with. Companies aren't doing anything unusual or evil. This is literally just how a market works. A lot of people forget that the job market is a market. Or they wish it wasn't a market and they could block out competition for themselves so companies had to pay them more (at the expense of those excluded)
- tstrimple 4mo ago
  > Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with. Bullshit cop out. I regularly spend more than the “average” on technology because I’ve been burned by the bottom of the barrel too many times. Maybe you cheap out on all of your purchases, but it says nothing about “everyone”. The fact that you claim “everyone” has as few moral qualms as you is telling. But not in a way that reflects everyone. Just short sighted selfish assholes.
  - Aurornis 4mo ago
    > Bullshit cop out. I regularly spend more than the “average” on technology because I’ve been burned by the bottom of the barrel too many times. You missed the part about equal service. Please read my whole comment, not just snap responses to the first line. Obviously nobody is hiring the person who has the lowest salary demands and ignoring their qualifications.
- Timon3 4mo ago
  This might be fair if the rules of the market were static, but companies are actively using their power and influence to affect the market rules so they can get away with paying workers less and less - that's not to mention collusion and corruption. Just because this has been normalized doesn't mean it's not evil. If a healthcare company introduces processes that deny people life-saving interventions just to funnel more money to their shareholders, that company and its leadership are thoroughly evil. I'd also like to add that I often pay more for things than I could get away with. I try to prefer locally owned businesses when possible, and if they have fair prices and give me good advice I often pay a bit extra (essentially a "tip" for the business) to support them.

cm11 4mo ago

I feel a bit like some have misconstrued my comment. I reread and can see how it could be read as quality of work being ALL that matters. Indeed, salaries capture many things and many bullshit ones. I don't exactly think what I wrote precludes that racism, sexism, nepotism, or cozying up to your boss factor more than they should, but I can see it. If I had another shot, maybe I'd reframe the provocation as "by and large Senior Xs make more than Junior Xs within the same company within the same geo, why?" Perhaps the existence of senior/junior titling at all is based on some sense of output/pay correlation.