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One must keep in mind that while acupunture works (for some things), it is not for the reasons stated by traditional practitioners, which are not scientific. Hu

One must keep in mind that while acupunture works (for some things), it is not for the reasons stated by traditional practitioners, which are not scientific. Humans don't have "qi" or energy blockages or chakras or any of the (frankly) bullshit inventions of Chinese and Asian medicine. A lot of traditional medicine works (and a lot made-up, superstitious nonsense does not), but it's invariably something that works with no underlying understanding. To paraphrase Tim Minchin (I believe), alternative medicine that works is called "medicine".

rgbrgb 14y ago
> Humans don't have "qi" or energy blockages or chakras I do. How do you know you don't?
- lobster_johnson 14y ago
  There is no reason for me to believe that I, or you, do, much as there is no reason for me to believe that ghosts exists, or that crystals can heal. There is no evidence that the things I listed exist, and there are much simpler, scientific explanations why acupuncture relieves pain and discomfort than reasons offered by Chinese medicine. (Acupuncture has not proven consistently effective for much else.) With simple explanations, Occam's razor implies we can rule out the more convoluted explanations. Equally importantly, the phenomena I listed have no rational, scientific basis. They are superstitions, or at best philoshopical abstractions irrelevant except as historical curiosities. If you could formulate a testable hypothesis I would be happy to discuss their validity, but unfortunately their existence are predicated entirely upon faith.
Alex3917 14y ago
"Humans don't have 'qi' or energy blockages or chakras or any of the (frankly) bullshit inventions of Chinese and Asian medicine." These things more or less exist, you just don't feel them unless you actively develop the ability. It's relatively easy though, you can get a pretty good taste just during a 10 day vipassana retreat. That's not to say anything about the validity of the various metaphysical explanations of energy phenomena, but I don't think there's any question that the phenomena themselves are real at least on some level.
- lobster_johnson 14y ago
  Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence? There is not a single scientific study confirming their existence, nor are there testable hypotheses with which we could confirm them. In other words, it is superstition. Worse, it's blatant quackery.
  - Alex3917 14y ago
    "Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence?" Firsthand experience. Saying it's quackery is like saying that colors are superstition and quackery because you can't prove their existence. Anyone (or certainly the vast majority of people) can experience these phenomena, if you haven't yet then it shows lack of intellectual curiosity and initiative. As it stands though scientists are currently working on cataloging the various states from traditional buddhist literature and then cross referencing those with various other traditions and teachers. This should be done in another couple years, and once that's done this will enable more and better quality research into what people actually experience while meditating or doing yoga. Everyone I talked to at the meditation retreat I did had the same sorts of experiences though, so I don't think there is really much doubt about what further research will find.
    - floody-berry 14y ago
      Science knows what color is, how we perceive color, and it is trivial to show that someone can or cannot see color. Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on.
      - Alex3917 14y ago
        "Science knows what color is, how we perceive color" As long as you're willing to accept that step 2 is "and then a miracle occurs." "Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on." Chakras, qi, energy, etc. are just names for phenomena you can experience. These phenomena may or may not be supernatural, but there is not necessarily anything supernatural needed for them to exist.
meric 14y ago
You have this picture of chinese medicine as doing voodoo activities such as the belief of taking certain herbs will cure diseases. While that may be part of chinese medicine it is not all of it. For example, when you break your arm, there are traditional chinese medicine techniques that work on the same principles of putting a cast on your arm. Of course, now that we're in the 21st century, 2000 year old techniques for healing a broken arm may not be as effective, but it is wrong to simply declare all of chinese medicine to be "something that works with no underlying understanding".
- yen223 14y ago
  Chinese medicine doesn't even have a concept of microorganisms, or cells -- things which we now know are pretty fundamental to knowing how a human body works. When you say it is wrong to simply declare all of Chinese medicine to be "something that works with no underlying understanding", you are correct -- that statement implies that Chinese medicine works.
- lobster_johnson 14y ago
  You just gave a great explanation how Chinese medicine has no underlying understanding: It has techniques for mending a broken arm, but not the scientific underpinnings to explain why it works. Traditional Chinese medicine does not have an understanding of bone knitting, nor does it identify what infection really is. Without a scientific framework, it's all cargo-cult medicine, doing things that sort of work (sometimes) without really knowing why.

rgbrgb 14y ago

> Humans don't have "qi" or energy blockages or chakras I do. How do you know you don't?

lobster_johnson 14y ago
There is no reason for me to believe that I, or you, do, much as there is no reason for me to believe that ghosts exists, or that crystals can heal. There is no evidence that the things I listed exist, and there are much simpler, scientific explanations why acupuncture relieves pain and discomfort than reasons offered by Chinese medicine. (Acupuncture has not proven consistently effective for much else.) With simple explanations, Occam's razor implies we can rule out the more convoluted explanations. Equally importantly, the phenomena I listed have no rational, scientific basis. They are superstitions, or at best philoshopical abstractions irrelevant except as historical curiosities. If you could formulate a testable hypothesis I would be happy to discuss their validity, but unfortunately their existence are predicated entirely upon faith.

Alex3917 14y ago

"Humans don't have 'qi' or energy blockages or chakras or any of the (frankly) bullshit inventions of Chinese and Asian medicine." These things more or less exist, you just don't feel them unless you actively develop the ability. It's relatively easy though, you can get a pretty good taste just during a 10 day vipassana retreat. That's not to say anything about the validity of the various metaphysical explanations of energy phenomena, but I don't think there's any question that the phenomena themselves are real at least on some level.

lobster_johnson 14y ago
Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence? There is not a single scientific study confirming their existence, nor are there testable hypotheses with which we could confirm them. In other words, it is superstition. Worse, it's blatant quackery.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  "Why do you think there no question? Do you have evidence?" Firsthand experience. Saying it's quackery is like saying that colors are superstition and quackery because you can't prove their existence. Anyone (or certainly the vast majority of people) can experience these phenomena, if you haven't yet then it shows lack of intellectual curiosity and initiative. As it stands though scientists are currently working on cataloging the various states from traditional buddhist literature and then cross referencing those with various other traditions and teachers. This should be done in another couple years, and once that's done this will enable more and better quality research into what people actually experience while meditating or doing yoga. Everyone I talked to at the meditation retreat I did had the same sorts of experiences though, so I don't think there is really much doubt about what further research will find.
  - floody-berry 14y ago
    Science knows what color is, how we perceive color, and it is trivial to show that someone can or cannot see color. Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on.
    - Alex3917 14y ago
      "Science knows what color is, how we perceive color" As long as you're willing to accept that step 2 is "and then a miracle occurs." "Firsthand experience from meditation is only evidence that using your attention in certain ways has various effects on the brain, it says nothing about the existence of chakras, qi, energy fields, auras, or the existence of deities or supernatural entities you were concentrating on." Chakras, qi, energy, etc. are just names for phenomena you can experience. These phenomena may or may not be supernatural, but there is not necessarily anything supernatural needed for them to exist.

meric 14y ago

You have this picture of chinese medicine as doing voodoo activities such as the belief of taking certain herbs will cure diseases. While that may be part of chinese medicine it is not all of it. For example, when you break your arm, there are traditional chinese medicine techniques that work on the same principles of putting a cast on your arm. Of course, now that we're in the 21st century, 2000 year old techniques for healing a broken arm may not be as effective, but it is wrong to simply declare all of chinese medicine to be "something that works with no underlying understanding".

yen223 14y ago
Chinese medicine doesn't even have a concept of microorganisms, or cells -- things which we now know are pretty fundamental to knowing how a human body works. When you say it is wrong to simply declare all of Chinese medicine to be "something that works with no underlying understanding", you are correct -- that statement implies that Chinese medicine works.
lobster_johnson 14y ago
You just gave a great explanation how Chinese medicine has no underlying understanding: It has techniques for mending a broken arm, but not the scientific underpinnings to explain why it works. Traditional Chinese medicine does not have an understanding of bone knitting, nor does it identify what infection really is. Without a scientific framework, it's all cargo-cult medicine, doing things that sort of work (sometimes) without really knowing why.