7 ms·

High-skill green cards get lame-duck push in Congress

29 points by clarkm 14y ago

elliott99 14y ago
I would be curious to see what effect this has on PHD programs
- eshvk 14y ago
  On the larger scale of things it is going to be minimal. The proportion of Indians and Chinese in the PhD programs is so high and 50,000 visas is so much of a small drop in the vast ocean, that it may have a tiny effect blimp in the curve or not, considering that there are so many other latent variables that come into play.
kunle 14y ago
Wonder why they wouldnt just add 50k STEM Green Cards instead of swapping them out? Seems like posturing.
- makmanalp 14y ago
  Key quote from the article: > Republicans are "trying to pretend they're pro-immigrant by this bill, knowing that it goes nowhere," said U.S. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-San Jose, the top Democrat on the House immigration subcommittee. I run a visa-related site so I try to follow these things closely. There actually were 3 different candidates for such a STEM visa bill. Basically the republicans are trying to pass one that the senate is unlikely to accept at this point, hoping that efforts to muster up another bill following this will be exhausted. Failing that, they'll have passed a bill that satisfies their lobbyists. Previously, Lamar smith tried to pass a different STEM visa bill that was failed under suspension, but was backed by Apple, HP, Intel, IBM, Oracle, etc. We'll see how this goes. I plan to do a writeup on this soon.
rdl 14y ago
There is very little chance of this passing the Senate or President, since it takes away the "diversity visa" and because solving the universally acceptable high-skill immigration issue reduces pressure for "comprehensive immigration reform", which is primarily about (by the numbers) Mexicans in the US, and secondarily other central and South Americans, few of whom have STEM degrees or work in tech.
ck2 14y ago
I'm admittedly ignorant on the details of why more tech green cards are needed. Is there a country that does tech immigration "right" like Canadian health-care is compared to US health care? I don't like the idea of discriminating who can be an immigrant based on what they know - or the model of what their income level is (ie. foreign corporate bigwigs get easy long term visas) I also don't like the idea that immigration is being sponsored to get lower wage workers for the same position, how can we insure that high-tech immigrants are paid the same as a domestic worker and not being taken advantage of? The worst problem I see with all of this is the idea that American colleges are not producing people who would be compatible for these jobs despite the millions of people who go into debt to get higher education. Maybe congress should be addressing that first and the timebomb of student loans and why college costs go up exactly based on what loans are available.
- eshvk 14y ago
  > Is there a country that does tech immigration "right" like Canadian health-care is compared to US health care? Erm..maybe the Canadian immigration system? They have a points based system where expertise in rare specialized skills gets you further up the value chain as far as getting a PR card. However, I am not particularly sure how robust their system is when compared to the American system and whether that setup would scale when ported here. > I don't like the idea of discriminating who can be an immigrant based on what they know - or the model of what their income level is (ie. foreign corporate bigwigs get easy long term visas) I like the diversity visa personally and don't agree with the idea that the 50K visas that make America a truly diverse nation should be poured into the pool of visas for tech ( A majority of which are really people of Indian and Chinese origin). Also, yes, I have heard of people "hacking" the visa system by coming in as corporate managers from foreign nations and easily getting green cards as "Aliens of extraordinary ability". However, you will have to understand that the U.S. is extraordinarily paranoid of the idea of people turning out to be public charges which I figure is why this discrimination exists. > I also don't like the idea that immigration is being sponsored to get lower wage workers for the same position, how can we insure that high-tech immigrants are paid the same as a domestic worker and not being taken advantage of? Well that is interesting, because I suspect that does happen pretty significantly in the industry especially when people born in India and China are involved. The process takes multiple years and if I understand it correctly, there are points where you can't leave your job for fear of starting over and losing years in the line. This to me is a situation that is ripe for exploitation. > The worst problem I see with all of this is the idea that American colleges are not producing people who would be compatible for these jobs despite the millions of people who go into debt to get higher education. This is a societal issue. I am not sure legislation can address this. In third world countries, there is extraordinary pressure to succeed and getting an advanced degree is one of the easier ways to get into the middle class or maintain your position in it. This is important especially considering that there is literally no safety net. On the other hand, one can exist just fine either as part of the middle class or the lower middle class with a minimal skill set in the U.S.
cbhl 14y ago
Just curious, how many of the HN faithful have Master's or higher level education? I would suspect that STEM grads who'd benefit most from this would predominately 'only' have Bachelor's degrees, if that even.
- drx 14y ago
  The funny thing about this is it wouldn't even benefit most people who hold a non-U.S. Master's degree. U.S. Bachelor's degrees usually take 4 years to complete, after which a U.S. Master's degree takes 2 years. Many non-U.S. bachelor's degrees take only 3 years and as a result, the USCIS deems having a 3 year Bachelor's + 2 year Master's as being unworthy of a U.S. Master's degree, instead equating it to a U.S. Bachelor's degree.
  - eshvk 14y ago
    In fact, getting into a U.S. university for grad. school gets harder (if not impossible) if you don't have a 4 year Bachelor's degree.
  - lttlrck 14y ago
    Yep. This happened to me. And having 15 years of 100% relevant industrial experience including being a company director made no difference to visa pool I was placed in...
- michaelt 14y ago
  Well, everyone's experience with this is going to depend on the type of people they know and their personal background. I am a programmer with a postgraduate degree myself, so I know many bright people in fields like physics and mathematics who have chosen masters degrees and even doctorates as a route to pursue their passions for physics and mathematics, and who have gone on to become excellent programmers. Granted, they could have made more cash by going straight into programming - or banking for that matter - but they've got passion and intellectual curiosity, and in my book that's a good thing for a programmer to have. That's not to say everyone with a postgraduate degree is great - I'm sure the population has its share of idiots and assholes, like every population!
zizee 14y ago
It always annoys me that business groups are constantly lobbying for increased immigration because of a "lack of supply" of skilled labour. When there is an imbalance in supply and demand with labour we should see an increase in the incomes of those people with the skills in shortage. Instead business groups want to cheat the system and increase supply, not by paying workers more, but instead trying to import more labour, screwing the workers out of their good fortune of being on the right side of the supply and demand equation for a change.
- timmclean 14y ago
  I don't see how this would be "cheating the system". There are skilled workers out there that can't receive the income they deserve simply because of their location. Locking out foreign workers is basically geographical discrimination -- and discrimination is economically inefficient. We'd all be better off if everyone could just receive a fair market salary: no more, no less.
  - yourapostasy 14y ago
    What you propose is feasible when labor flows as freely as capital across borders. It takes less paperwork and time to set up a bank account in a foreign bank and deposit funds into it than it does to start working in the same domicile as the foreign bank (unless one is talking about special cases like intra-EU or intra-NAFTA, and even intra-NAFTA is no picnic). If you have $0.5-1M or more to set up shop, it takes less paperwork and time to start a new business in a foreign domicile than it does to move your labor to the same domicile without the same level of capital (and in many locales, that level of capital garners you a PR card at the same time). At the moment there is asymmetric discrimination against labor mobility, and these calls for increased immigration-with-strings quotas from capital represent an even greater imbalance, hence where I suspect the "cheating the system" sentiment comes from. Cut all the strings, and your fair market value would tend to emerge.
  - zizee 14y ago
    My point of view is this: Companies are certainly willing to take advantage when there is an oversupply of labour and decrease wages. When there is an undersupply of labour it is hypocritical for companies to complain that there is an not enough workers without first increasing salaries to entice workers into that area.
cletus 14y ago
Immigration policy in the US is ridiculous. Why is this particular bill aimed at people with advanced degrees only? The majority of software engineers only have undergrad degrees and don't really need anything more than that. This is my case and I'm up for a wait of probably 3-4 years for an employer sponsored green card. The green card lottery is an odd beast and frankly I think is my best bet of getting a green card (coming from a relatively low lottery program participant country of Australia). In these issues someone always raises the "what about domestic workers?" argument, which takes one of two forms: 1. Immigrant workers are taking jobs that domestic workers could do or could be trained to do; and 2. The increase in supply is dampening the earning potential of those in the field. (2) might well be true but this isn't a bad thing. Doctors in some countries are scarce because the de facto doctor's "union" seeks to constrain supply, raising the cost of health care. For example, by restricting the number of university places in medicine. Or, in Australia, runaway capital projects have raised the cost of construction to absurdly high levels, particularly in Western Australia, such that you really can't build a house for less than $300,000 anymore. Higher construction costs raise the cost of everything. This (IMHO) could ultimately paralyze the economy. As for (1), speaking just about software engineers, there is a worldwide shortage of competent software engineers. There are (IMHO) at least 10 times as many masquerading as software engineers. I am shocked when I see candidates with 10 years of experience who can't write a for loop in the language of their choice on a whiteboard. Given a worldwide shortage, it's better to have as many of them as possible. As for entrepreneurs, frankly I think states should have the right to collect a special tax (in addition to other taxes) for anyone who wants to come to the US and start their business. That tax is to cover infrastructure and government services that person uses. Let them stay on that as long as they're willing to pay and until such time as they can shift to an immigration category based on the size of their business (these categories already exist). Also, let the spouses of H1B holders have a job. I'm an Australian and on an E3 visa (specifically for Australian professionals). One advantage of this is the E3D (spouse visa for an E3 holder) allows that spouse to work. Just FYI.
- eshvk 14y ago
  > Immigration policy in the US is ridiculous. Why is this particular bill aimed at people with advanced degrees only? The majority of software engineers only have undergrad degrees and don't really need anything more than that. This is my case and I'm up for a wait of probably 3-4 years for an employer sponsored green card. Do you realize how easy it is to get an undergrad degree in Asia? A vast majority of undergrad degrees there are a joke. What are we going to do? Use Fizz Buzz to evaluate who is qualified to get a green card? I sympathize with you but the problem is that "advanced degrees" is essentially code word for has a degree from a U.S. university which I suspect they want. > The green card lottery is an odd beast and frankly I think is my best bet of getting a green card (coming from a relatively low lottery program participant country of Australia). Agreed. If the employment based green card was my only option, I am fairly certain I would emigrate to Canada or some other destination rather than spend 10+ years tied to an employer waiting for a Green Card. > 2) might well be true but this isn't a bad thing. Doctors in some countries are scarce because the de facto doctor's "union" seeks to constrain supply, raising the cost of health care. For example, by restricting the number of university places in medicine. > As for (1), speaking just about software engineers, there is a worldwide shortage of competent software engineers. There are (IMHO) at least 10 times as many masquerading as software engineers. I am shocked when I see candidates with 10 years of experience who can't write a for loop in the language of their choice on a whiteboard. I kind of agree with you but good luck getting a politician who is beholden to U.S. voters to agree to that. There are already rants about "immigrants stealing jobs" and depressing wages. Free market economics is not highly encouraged around these parts. > Also, let the spouses of H1B holders have a job. I'm an Australian and on an E3 visa (specifically for Australian professionals). One advantage of this is the E3D (spouse visa for an E3 holder) allows that spouse to work. Just FYI. Again, there is a reason that doesn't exist. It is hackable: One person comes in through an H1B and another person gets through the system and "steals a job from a deserving American". Also, how do you handle the situation where the H1B is technically tied to one employer and another employer is somehow gaining by being able to hire their spouse? I suspect the reason it exists for Australians is the low numbers of Australians coming which means the system has been hacked (yet).
fuddle 14y ago
"One problem, said Lofgren, is that the Republicans' swap would actually cut immigration, since there are not enough foreigners with advanced degrees who want to emigrate" This is plain wrong, last year the H1B visa cap was reached in June. The year before in November. I applied for the H1B visa for a job in SF, two years ago, but I missed the cap by one day. Hopefully the limit will be increased this year.
stuaxo 14y ago
As an outsider .. I thought the US had loads of out of work high skill programmers etc. The problem is just that companies don't want to pay them a reasonable rate, and use green carders instead?

29 points by clarkm 14y ago

elliott99 14y ago

I would be curious to see what effect this has on PHD programs

eshvk 14y ago
On the larger scale of things it is going to be minimal. The proportion of Indians and Chinese in the PhD programs is so high and 50,000 visas is so much of a small drop in the vast ocean, that it may have a tiny effect blimp in the curve or not, considering that there are so many other latent variables that come into play.

kunle 14y ago

Wonder why they wouldnt just add 50k STEM Green Cards instead of swapping them out? Seems like posturing.

makmanalp 14y ago
Key quote from the article: > Republicans are "trying to pretend they're pro-immigrant by this bill, knowing that it goes nowhere," said U.S. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-San Jose, the top Democrat on the House immigration subcommittee. I run a visa-related site so I try to follow these things closely. There actually were 3 different candidates for such a STEM visa bill. Basically the republicans are trying to pass one that the senate is unlikely to accept at this point, hoping that efforts to muster up another bill following this will be exhausted. Failing that, they'll have passed a bill that satisfies their lobbyists. Previously, Lamar smith tried to pass a different STEM visa bill that was failed under suspension, but was backed by Apple, HP, Intel, IBM, Oracle, etc. We'll see how this goes. I plan to do a writeup on this soon.

rdl 14y ago

There is very little chance of this passing the Senate or President, since it takes away the "diversity visa" and because solving the universally acceptable high-skill immigration issue reduces pressure for "comprehensive immigration reform", which is primarily about (by the numbers) Mexicans in the US, and secondarily other central and South Americans, few of whom have STEM degrees or work in tech.

ck2 14y ago

I'm admittedly ignorant on the details of why more tech green cards are needed. Is there a country that does tech immigration "right" like Canadian health-care is compared to US health care? I don't like the idea of discriminating who can be an immigrant based on what they know - or the model of what their income level is (ie. foreign corporate bigwigs get easy long term visas) I also don't like the idea that immigration is being sponsored to get lower wage workers for the same position, how can we insure that high-tech immigrants are paid the same as a domestic worker and not being taken advantage of? The worst problem I see with all of this is the idea that American colleges are not producing people who would be compatible for these jobs despite the millions of people who go into debt to get higher education. Maybe congress should be addressing that first and the timebomb of student loans and why college costs go up exactly based on what loans are available.

eshvk 14y ago
> Is there a country that does tech immigration "right" like Canadian health-care is compared to US health care? Erm..maybe the Canadian immigration system? They have a points based system where expertise in rare specialized skills gets you further up the value chain as far as getting a PR card. However, I am not particularly sure how robust their system is when compared to the American system and whether that setup would scale when ported here. > I don't like the idea of discriminating who can be an immigrant based on what they know - or the model of what their income level is (ie. foreign corporate bigwigs get easy long term visas) I like the diversity visa personally and don't agree with the idea that the 50K visas that make America a truly diverse nation should be poured into the pool of visas for tech ( A majority of which are really people of Indian and Chinese origin). Also, yes, I have heard of people "hacking" the visa system by coming in as corporate managers from foreign nations and easily getting green cards as "Aliens of extraordinary ability". However, you will have to understand that the U.S. is extraordinarily paranoid of the idea of people turning out to be public charges which I figure is why this discrimination exists. > I also don't like the idea that immigration is being sponsored to get lower wage workers for the same position, how can we insure that high-tech immigrants are paid the same as a domestic worker and not being taken advantage of? Well that is interesting, because I suspect that does happen pretty significantly in the industry especially when people born in India and China are involved. The process takes multiple years and if I understand it correctly, there are points where you can't leave your job for fear of starting over and losing years in the line. This to me is a situation that is ripe for exploitation. > The worst problem I see with all of this is the idea that American colleges are not producing people who would be compatible for these jobs despite the millions of people who go into debt to get higher education. This is a societal issue. I am not sure legislation can address this. In third world countries, there is extraordinary pressure to succeed and getting an advanced degree is one of the easier ways to get into the middle class or maintain your position in it. This is important especially considering that there is literally no safety net. On the other hand, one can exist just fine either as part of the middle class or the lower middle class with a minimal skill set in the U.S.

cbhl 14y ago

Just curious, how many of the HN faithful have Master's or higher level education? I would suspect that STEM grads who'd benefit most from this would predominately 'only' have Bachelor's degrees, if that even.

drx 14y ago
The funny thing about this is it wouldn't even benefit most people who hold a non-U.S. Master's degree. U.S. Bachelor's degrees usually take 4 years to complete, after which a U.S. Master's degree takes 2 years. Many non-U.S. bachelor's degrees take only 3 years and as a result, the USCIS deems having a 3 year Bachelor's + 2 year Master's as being unworthy of a U.S. Master's degree, instead equating it to a U.S. Bachelor's degree.
- eshvk 14y ago
  In fact, getting into a U.S. university for grad. school gets harder (if not impossible) if you don't have a 4 year Bachelor's degree.
- lttlrck 14y ago
  Yep. This happened to me. And having 15 years of 100% relevant industrial experience including being a company director made no difference to visa pool I was placed in...
michaelt 14y ago
Well, everyone's experience with this is going to depend on the type of people they know and their personal background. I am a programmer with a postgraduate degree myself, so I know many bright people in fields like physics and mathematics who have chosen masters degrees and even doctorates as a route to pursue their passions for physics and mathematics, and who have gone on to become excellent programmers. Granted, they could have made more cash by going straight into programming - or banking for that matter - but they've got passion and intellectual curiosity, and in my book that's a good thing for a programmer to have. That's not to say everyone with a postgraduate degree is great - I'm sure the population has its share of idiots and assholes, like every population!

zizee 14y ago

It always annoys me that business groups are constantly lobbying for increased immigration because of a "lack of supply" of skilled labour. When there is an imbalance in supply and demand with labour we should see an increase in the incomes of those people with the skills in shortage. Instead business groups want to cheat the system and increase supply, not by paying workers more, but instead trying to import more labour, screwing the workers out of their good fortune of being on the right side of the supply and demand equation for a change.

timmclean 14y ago
I don't see how this would be "cheating the system". There are skilled workers out there that can't receive the income they deserve simply because of their location. Locking out foreign workers is basically geographical discrimination -- and discrimination is economically inefficient. We'd all be better off if everyone could just receive a fair market salary: no more, no less.
- yourapostasy 14y ago
  What you propose is feasible when labor flows as freely as capital across borders. It takes less paperwork and time to set up a bank account in a foreign bank and deposit funds into it than it does to start working in the same domicile as the foreign bank (unless one is talking about special cases like intra-EU or intra-NAFTA, and even intra-NAFTA is no picnic). If you have $0.5-1M or more to set up shop, it takes less paperwork and time to start a new business in a foreign domicile than it does to move your labor to the same domicile without the same level of capital (and in many locales, that level of capital garners you a PR card at the same time). At the moment there is asymmetric discrimination against labor mobility, and these calls for increased immigration-with-strings quotas from capital represent an even greater imbalance, hence where I suspect the "cheating the system" sentiment comes from. Cut all the strings, and your fair market value would tend to emerge.
- zizee 14y ago
  My point of view is this: Companies are certainly willing to take advantage when there is an oversupply of labour and decrease wages. When there is an undersupply of labour it is hypocritical for companies to complain that there is an not enough workers without first increasing salaries to entice workers into that area.

cletus 14y ago

Immigration policy in the US is ridiculous. Why is this particular bill aimed at people with advanced degrees only? The majority of software engineers only have undergrad degrees and don't really need anything more than that. This is my case and I'm up for a wait of probably 3-4 years for an employer sponsored green card. The green card lottery is an odd beast and frankly I think is my best bet of getting a green card (coming from a relatively low lottery program participant country of Australia). In these issues someone always raises the "what about domestic workers?" argument, which takes one of two forms: 1. Immigrant workers are taking jobs that domestic workers could do or could be trained to do; and 2. The increase in supply is dampening the earning potential of those in the field. (2) might well be true but this isn't a bad thing. Doctors in some countries are scarce because the de facto doctor's "union" seeks to constrain supply, raising the cost of health care. For example, by restricting the number of university places in medicine. Or, in Australia, runaway capital projects have raised the cost of construction to absurdly high levels, particularly in Western Australia, such that you really can't build a house for less than $300,000 anymore. Higher construction costs raise the cost of everything. This (IMHO) could ultimately paralyze the economy. As for (1), speaking just about software engineers, there is a worldwide shortage of competent software engineers. There are (IMHO) at least 10 times as many masquerading as software engineers. I am shocked when I see candidates with 10 years of experience who can't write a for loop in the language of their choice on a whiteboard. Given a worldwide shortage, it's better to have as many of them as possible. As for entrepreneurs, frankly I think states should have the right to collect a special tax (in addition to other taxes) for anyone who wants to come to the US and start their business. That tax is to cover infrastructure and government services that person uses. Let them stay on that as long as they're willing to pay and until such time as they can shift to an immigration category based on the size of their business (these categories already exist). Also, let the spouses of H1B holders have a job. I'm an Australian and on an E3 visa (specifically for Australian professionals). One advantage of this is the E3D (spouse visa for an E3 holder) allows that spouse to work. Just FYI.

eshvk 14y ago
> Immigration policy in the US is ridiculous. Why is this particular bill aimed at people with advanced degrees only? The majority of software engineers only have undergrad degrees and don't really need anything more than that. This is my case and I'm up for a wait of probably 3-4 years for an employer sponsored green card. Do you realize how easy it is to get an undergrad degree in Asia? A vast majority of undergrad degrees there are a joke. What are we going to do? Use Fizz Buzz to evaluate who is qualified to get a green card? I sympathize with you but the problem is that "advanced degrees" is essentially code word for has a degree from a U.S. university which I suspect they want. > The green card lottery is an odd beast and frankly I think is my best bet of getting a green card (coming from a relatively low lottery program participant country of Australia). Agreed. If the employment based green card was my only option, I am fairly certain I would emigrate to Canada or some other destination rather than spend 10+ years tied to an employer waiting for a Green Card. > 2) might well be true but this isn't a bad thing. Doctors in some countries are scarce because the de facto doctor's "union" seeks to constrain supply, raising the cost of health care. For example, by restricting the number of university places in medicine. > As for (1), speaking just about software engineers, there is a worldwide shortage of competent software engineers. There are (IMHO) at least 10 times as many masquerading as software engineers. I am shocked when I see candidates with 10 years of experience who can't write a for loop in the language of their choice on a whiteboard. I kind of agree with you but good luck getting a politician who is beholden to U.S. voters to agree to that. There are already rants about "immigrants stealing jobs" and depressing wages. Free market economics is not highly encouraged around these parts. > Also, let the spouses of H1B holders have a job. I'm an Australian and on an E3 visa (specifically for Australian professionals). One advantage of this is the E3D (spouse visa for an E3 holder) allows that spouse to work. Just FYI. Again, there is a reason that doesn't exist. It is hackable: One person comes in through an H1B and another person gets through the system and "steals a job from a deserving American". Also, how do you handle the situation where the H1B is technically tied to one employer and another employer is somehow gaining by being able to hire their spouse? I suspect the reason it exists for Australians is the low numbers of Australians coming which means the system has been hacked (yet).

fuddle 14y ago

"One problem, said Lofgren, is that the Republicans' swap would actually cut immigration, since there are not enough foreigners with advanced degrees who want to emigrate" This is plain wrong, last year the H1B visa cap was reached in June. The year before in November. I applied for the H1B visa for a job in SF, two years ago, but I missed the cap by one day. Hopefully the limit will be increased this year.

stuaxo 14y ago

As an outsider .. I thought the US had loads of out of work high skill programmers etc. The problem is just that companies don't want to pay them a reasonable rate, and use green carders instead?