4 ms·

> Canada only has to patrol its northern border. At what point on this current trajectory in the US would that change... mostly facetiously, but not entirely..

petcat 5mo ago
Canada would only have to patrol its southern Alberta border /s No coincidence that Albertans are sparking up the seceding issue again. When 10% of the population produces nearly 20% of the country's GDP it's a breeding ground for contempt. And it also seems like Albertans are the butt of a lot of jokes from the other Canadians anyway. I'm sure this US government would love to see an "independent" Alberta.
- squigz 5mo ago
  > And it also seems like Albertans are the butt of a lot of jokes from the other Canadians anyway. This is hardly my experience as a Canadian. They're not Newfoundlanders, for crying out loud...
  - kergonath 5mo ago
    I thought Québec-bashing was a national sport.
- rubayeet 5mo ago
  This is false. Alberta is NOT the economic engine of Canada, that’s a huge misconception of a group of Canadians (mostly Albertans) [0] [0] https://youtu.be/5lSJpqA8RU4?si=fxwKpUFFKO7gK63E https://youtu.be/5lSJpqA8RU4?si=fxwKpUFFKO7gK63E
  - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
    You're right but you should cite something other than the CBC, since it will just be immediately dismissed by the biased as biased. Alberta is very important economically. I'm from there. Ontario (I live there) and Quebec and BC are also massively important. And fanning the flames of disinformation and playing grievance politics to make Albertans feel discriminated against has become an extremely serious problem. Wab Kinew was very eloquent on this topic yesterday.
    - jleyank 5mo ago
      I would think Ontario is the centre of Canada as it has the most people and the financial centre. Google's AI says 38% of GDP. And the problem Alberta faces is who wants to separate, what do they want to do afterwards and what ground do they actually own (vs. treaties that predate Alberta). When Alberta at least catches up to Quebec in practicing being independent (runs its own police, collects its own taxes, has its own pension system, maintains foreign services, ... They might decide the extra taxes to pay for such is less "fun". And they need a border to ship stuff through.
      - 8note 5mo ago
        alberta has the border to ship stuff through, the only one that actually matters, to the south rounding errors east and west dont particularly matter
        cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
        North America's biggest oil pipeline -- Enbridge Mainline, which has a capacity of 3.2M barrels per day -- runs east through Sask, Manitoba, ducks down through Michigan, and then splits before coming back into Canada in Ontario in two places (including Line9 ~1km from my house.) Ontario is one of Alberta's biggest customers. Then there's westbound ... TMX capacity of 890,000 barrels a day, to BC ports (and then on to China). vs southbound lines to the US Keystone, 640,000 BPD and Express 310,000 Please check your facts.
  - AlexandrB 5mo ago
    Did you watch this video? About half way through he confirms that Alberta has the highest GDP/capita in Canada and is the largest (per capita) tax contributor. Ontario is obviously larger in absolute terms, but it has at least 4x the population.
    - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
      As with any time you deploy an average... (And I'd expect better on this forum of all places) Show me the distribution. Show me the median not just the mean. Show me the standard deviation. Otherwise ... abused. Yes, we all know oil is an extremely profitable (and environmentally destructive) commodity. That doesn't make the typical Albertans somehow responsible for holding up all of confederation. Just means oil is making some people very rich. For now. I'm from there and my family is in Alberta. I can tell you now that the oil industry ain't doing jack squat for them.
      - jleyank 5mo ago
        Do the oil profits even stay in Canada? Taxes maybe, but it’s not like the province owns the wells.
        cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
        They get to "own" them when it's time to "clean them up" after they're abandoned by bankrupt shell corporations, that's for sure. https://www.pgic-iogc.gc.ca/eng/1588343274882/1588355750048 https://www.pgic-iogc.gc.ca/eng/1588343274882/1588355750048 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/abaondoned-oil-well-orphan-cleanup-parkland-institute-report-1.6093414 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/abaondoned-oil-well-o... https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/what-did-alberta-do-with-1b-from-trudeau-for-o-g-cleanup/article_58b472c6-b1ad-592d-9ac5-49b1df9bbf0c.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/what-did-alberta-do-with... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-more-than-1-billion-spent-cleaning-up-inactive-wells-in-alberta-led-to/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-more-than-1... But Trudeau had it out for Alberta. Better off separating. Yep.
        5mo ago
- peteyPete 5mo ago
  Of course the US gov would love to see an "independent" Alberta... They'd see that as easy oil reserves to put their hands on and a weaker Canada. They're working with traitors in separatist organizations as well as PP and trying to import MAGA into Canada.. Albertan's, due solely to their location, stand on oil riches... They don't have to do much to be the country's highest earners, its literally handed to them on a sticky black oil platter. (Not saying they don't work hard... loads of people work just as hard in other fields that aren't covered in gold though). They have the highest median pay in Canada, pay the least taxes.. Yet still spend their time crying and saying they're keeping Canada afloat... They're not Canada's highest GDP province... And other provinces don't spend their time trying to sell out to the US, even after the US threatening to destroy Canada, economically or otherwise. That's treason my guy. There's not too many ways to say it. Also, Alberta's population isn't even close to having the votes to even considering separating, without getting into all the other issues they're trying to pretend don't matter. The whole thing is a joke.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
- wat10000 5mo ago
  According to Wikipedia, Alberta accounts for 11.52% of the national population and 15.25% of the GDP. Such injustice.
  - AlexandrB 5mo ago
    That's not the injustice. The problem is that Alberta's political interests are very poorly (if at all) represented federally. This has come to a head a few times in the past with things like cancelled pipeline projects or the NEP[1]. So the issue is that Alberta has 11.52% of the population, contributes 15.25% of the GDP, yet must constantly fight against policies that put it at a disadvantage or run counter to its political leanings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program > Estimates have placed Alberta's losses between $50 billion and $100 billion because of the NEP.[32][33] Alberta still initially enjoyed an economic surplus due to high oil prices, but the surplus was heavily reduced by the NEP, which, in turn, stymied many of Lougheed's policies for economic diversification to reduce Alberta's dependence on the cyclical energy industry, such as the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund, and also left the province with an infrastructure deficit. In particular, the Alberta Heritage Fund was meant to save as much of the earnings during high oil prices to act as a "rainy day" cushion if oil prices collapsed because of the cyclical nature of the oil and gas industry.
    - bryanlarsen 5mo ago
      Cancelled pipeline projects? Ottawa doesn't cancel pipeline projects. All the problems with pipeline projects are caused by environmental reviews etc, which fall under legislation brought in by Stephen Harper, an Albertan. It's much the opposite, Canada just spent $34B to ensure the Trans-Mountain pipeline got built. Alberta is the one that gets the resource revenue, but it's Ottawa that has to pay for your pipelines. That's hardly fair. Alberta has one legitimate grievance, the NEP. Which is a plan that was cancelled by Mulroney over 40 years ago.
    - vohk 5mo ago
      The AHSTF performed poorly because successive Albertan provincial governments slashed contributions to it, not because of the ghost of the NEP. It was established in 1976, then contributions were cut in half in 1983, and eliminated entirely in 1987. The NEP was gone by 1985. What hurt Alberta was every cyclical crash in oil prices, and their steadfast refusal to implement additional revenue streams like a provincial sales tax while spending instead of saving their resource-boom surpluses.
- dessimus 5mo ago
  So then by your arguments above, you're good with California leaving since they'd be a G6 nation on their own? Because as you would might say: I'm sure this Canadian government would love to see an "independent" California.
  - petcat 5mo ago
    Texas has entertained the idea of seceding for 150 years. And they would be a G7 country if they did. But they would have to fight a war to do it. USA already went through this once. The only thing really stopping Alberta from leaving is whether or not BC, Ontario, and Quebec are willing to fight a war to stop it. And that gets a lot more complicated if the US also wants Alberta to go independent....
    - dessimus 5mo ago
      I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if Canada wasn't willing to let Quebec leave, and they've tried with significantly more effort than Alberta ever has, then they're not going to let Alberta go.
    - stackghost 5mo ago
      >The only thing really stopping Alberta from leaving is whether or not BC, Ontario, and Quebec are willing to fight a war to stop it. Unlike the individual US states, Alberta never joined Canada. It was not an entity that existed prior to Canada's confederation. Alberta was basically pencil-whipped into existence by carving out a chunk of an already existing territory (the Northwest Territory). Despite American and Russian destabilization campaigns in Canada, there is no legal mechanism by which Canadian provinces can unilaterally secede. >And that gets a lot more complicated if the US also wants Alberta to go independent.... Recent past polling overwhelmingly showed Albertans in favor of remaining in Canada. This latest frenzy is widely known to be a foreign influence operation.
      - petcat 5mo ago
        > there is no legal mechanism by which Canadian provinces can unilaterally secede Legal? Who's laws? Albertans can just declare that they don't respect Ottawa's authority, right? Guns and bullets are the only "legal" currency. It's not paperwork.
- jamie_ca 5mo ago
  You're rounding both ways to exaggerate your point. 2024 numbers, Stats Canada (via Wikipedia) has Alberta at 11.9% population, and 15.25% GDP. They (and Sask too) do swing on the higher end in GDP per capita, but it's not a 2:1 by any stretch.
  - throw0101c 5mo ago
    > […] 15.25% GDP. Which isn't that far off from BC's 13.80%: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_gross_domestic_product#GDP_and_per_capita_GDP,_2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and...
  - tempestn 5mo ago
    And this is mostly thanks to the oil sands. Will that always be the economic engine it is today?
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]

petcat 5mo ago

Canada would only have to patrol its southern Alberta border /s No coincidence that Albertans are sparking up the seceding issue again. When 10% of the population produces nearly 20% of the country's GDP it's a breeding ground for contempt. And it also seems like Albertans are the butt of a lot of jokes from the other Canadians anyway. I'm sure this US government would love to see an "independent" Alberta.

squigz 5mo ago
> And it also seems like Albertans are the butt of a lot of jokes from the other Canadians anyway. This is hardly my experience as a Canadian. They're not Newfoundlanders, for crying out loud...
- kergonath 5mo ago
  I thought Québec-bashing was a national sport.
rubayeet 5mo ago
This is false. Alberta is NOT the economic engine of Canada, that’s a huge misconception of a group of Canadians (mostly Albertans) [0] [0] https://youtu.be/5lSJpqA8RU4?si=fxwKpUFFKO7gK63E https://youtu.be/5lSJpqA8RU4?si=fxwKpUFFKO7gK63E
- cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
  You're right but you should cite something other than the CBC, since it will just be immediately dismissed by the biased as biased. Alberta is very important economically. I'm from there. Ontario (I live there) and Quebec and BC are also massively important. And fanning the flames of disinformation and playing grievance politics to make Albertans feel discriminated against has become an extremely serious problem. Wab Kinew was very eloquent on this topic yesterday.
  - jleyank 5mo ago
    I would think Ontario is the centre of Canada as it has the most people and the financial centre. Google's AI says 38% of GDP. And the problem Alberta faces is who wants to separate, what do they want to do afterwards and what ground do they actually own (vs. treaties that predate Alberta). When Alberta at least catches up to Quebec in practicing being independent (runs its own police, collects its own taxes, has its own pension system, maintains foreign services, ... They might decide the extra taxes to pay for such is less "fun". And they need a border to ship stuff through.
    - 8note 5mo ago
      alberta has the border to ship stuff through, the only one that actually matters, to the south rounding errors east and west dont particularly matter
      - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
        North America's biggest oil pipeline -- Enbridge Mainline, which has a capacity of 3.2M barrels per day -- runs east through Sask, Manitoba, ducks down through Michigan, and then splits before coming back into Canada in Ontario in two places (including Line9 ~1km from my house.) Ontario is one of Alberta's biggest customers. Then there's westbound ... TMX capacity of 890,000 barrels a day, to BC ports (and then on to China). vs southbound lines to the US Keystone, 640,000 BPD and Express 310,000 Please check your facts.
- AlexandrB 5mo ago
  Did you watch this video? About half way through he confirms that Alberta has the highest GDP/capita in Canada and is the largest (per capita) tax contributor. Ontario is obviously larger in absolute terms, but it has at least 4x the population.
  - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
    As with any time you deploy an average... (And I'd expect better on this forum of all places) Show me the distribution. Show me the median not just the mean. Show me the standard deviation. Otherwise ... abused. Yes, we all know oil is an extremely profitable (and environmentally destructive) commodity. That doesn't make the typical Albertans somehow responsible for holding up all of confederation. Just means oil is making some people very rich. For now. I'm from there and my family is in Alberta. I can tell you now that the oil industry ain't doing jack squat for them.
    - jleyank 5mo ago
      Do the oil profits even stay in Canada? Taxes maybe, but it’s not like the province owns the wells.
      - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
        They get to "own" them when it's time to "clean them up" after they're abandoned by bankrupt shell corporations, that's for sure. https://www.pgic-iogc.gc.ca/eng/1588343274882/1588355750048 https://www.pgic-iogc.gc.ca/eng/1588343274882/1588355750048 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/abaondoned-oil-well-orphan-cleanup-parkland-institute-report-1.6093414 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/abaondoned-oil-well-o... https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/what-did-alberta-do-with-1b-from-trudeau-for-o-g-cleanup/article_58b472c6-b1ad-592d-9ac5-49b1df9bbf0c.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/what-did-alberta-do-with... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-more-than-1-billion-spent-cleaning-up-inactive-wells-in-alberta-led-to/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-more-than-1... But Trudeau had it out for Alberta. Better off separating. Yep.
      - 5mo ago
peteyPete 5mo ago
Of course the US gov would love to see an "independent" Alberta... They'd see that as easy oil reserves to put their hands on and a weaker Canada. They're working with traitors in separatist organizations as well as PP and trying to import MAGA into Canada.. Albertan's, due solely to their location, stand on oil riches... They don't have to do much to be the country's highest earners, its literally handed to them on a sticky black oil platter. (Not saying they don't work hard... loads of people work just as hard in other fields that aren't covered in gold though). They have the highest median pay in Canada, pay the least taxes.. Yet still spend their time crying and saying they're keeping Canada afloat... They're not Canada's highest GDP province... And other provinces don't spend their time trying to sell out to the US, even after the US threatening to destroy Canada, economically or otherwise. That's treason my guy. There's not too many ways to say it. Also, Alberta's population isn't even close to having the votes to even considering separating, without getting into all the other issues they're trying to pretend don't matter. The whole thing is a joke.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
wat10000 5mo ago
According to Wikipedia, Alberta accounts for 11.52% of the national population and 15.25% of the GDP. Such injustice.
- AlexandrB 5mo ago
  That's not the injustice. The problem is that Alberta's political interests are very poorly (if at all) represented federally. This has come to a head a few times in the past with things like cancelled pipeline projects or the NEP[1]. So the issue is that Alberta has 11.52% of the population, contributes 15.25% of the GDP, yet must constantly fight against policies that put it at a disadvantage or run counter to its political leanings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program > Estimates have placed Alberta's losses between $50 billion and $100 billion because of the NEP.[32][33] Alberta still initially enjoyed an economic surplus due to high oil prices, but the surplus was heavily reduced by the NEP, which, in turn, stymied many of Lougheed's policies for economic diversification to reduce Alberta's dependence on the cyclical energy industry, such as the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund, and also left the province with an infrastructure deficit. In particular, the Alberta Heritage Fund was meant to save as much of the earnings during high oil prices to act as a "rainy day" cushion if oil prices collapsed because of the cyclical nature of the oil and gas industry.
  - bryanlarsen 5mo ago
    Cancelled pipeline projects? Ottawa doesn't cancel pipeline projects. All the problems with pipeline projects are caused by environmental reviews etc, which fall under legislation brought in by Stephen Harper, an Albertan. It's much the opposite, Canada just spent $34B to ensure the Trans-Mountain pipeline got built. Alberta is the one that gets the resource revenue, but it's Ottawa that has to pay for your pipelines. That's hardly fair. Alberta has one legitimate grievance, the NEP. Which is a plan that was cancelled by Mulroney over 40 years ago.
  - vohk 5mo ago
    The AHSTF performed poorly because successive Albertan provincial governments slashed contributions to it, not because of the ghost of the NEP. It was established in 1976, then contributions were cut in half in 1983, and eliminated entirely in 1987. The NEP was gone by 1985. What hurt Alberta was every cyclical crash in oil prices, and their steadfast refusal to implement additional revenue streams like a provincial sales tax while spending instead of saving their resource-boom surpluses.
dessimus 5mo ago
So then by your arguments above, you're good with California leaving since they'd be a G6 nation on their own? Because as you would might say: I'm sure this Canadian government would love to see an "independent" California.
- petcat 5mo ago
  Texas has entertained the idea of seceding for 150 years. And they would be a G7 country if they did. But they would have to fight a war to do it. USA already went through this once. The only thing really stopping Alberta from leaving is whether or not BC, Ontario, and Quebec are willing to fight a war to stop it. And that gets a lot more complicated if the US also wants Alberta to go independent....
  - dessimus 5mo ago
    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if Canada wasn't willing to let Quebec leave, and they've tried with significantly more effort than Alberta ever has, then they're not going to let Alberta go.
  - stackghost 5mo ago
    >The only thing really stopping Alberta from leaving is whether or not BC, Ontario, and Quebec are willing to fight a war to stop it. Unlike the individual US states, Alberta never joined Canada. It was not an entity that existed prior to Canada's confederation. Alberta was basically pencil-whipped into existence by carving out a chunk of an already existing territory (the Northwest Territory). Despite American and Russian destabilization campaigns in Canada, there is no legal mechanism by which Canadian provinces can unilaterally secede. >And that gets a lot more complicated if the US also wants Alberta to go independent.... Recent past polling overwhelmingly showed Albertans in favor of remaining in Canada. This latest frenzy is widely known to be a foreign influence operation.
    - petcat 5mo ago
      > there is no legal mechanism by which Canadian provinces can unilaterally secede Legal? Who's laws? Albertans can just declare that they don't respect Ottawa's authority, right? Guns and bullets are the only "legal" currency. It's not paperwork.
jamie_ca 5mo ago
You're rounding both ways to exaggerate your point. 2024 numbers, Stats Canada (via Wikipedia) has Alberta at 11.9% population, and 15.25% GDP. They (and Sask too) do swing on the higher end in GDP per capita, but it's not a 2:1 by any stretch.
- throw0101c 5mo ago
  > […] 15.25% GDP. Which isn't that far off from BC's 13.80%: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_gross_domestic_product#GDP_and_per_capita_GDP,_2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and...
- tempestn 5mo ago
  And this is mostly thanks to the oil sands. Will that always be the economic engine it is today?
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]