6 ms·

Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (amon

Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better. After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that reclaimed the old ways of giving mass, in Latin, (and, IIRC, with the deacon giving his back to the people, not looking at them), and said there was "a moral and theological crisis in the Catholic Church". Or people like the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, saying they have the authentic Pope, and the one in Rome is an Antipope. They were a scam for pulling money from their believers, and their "Pope" kept spending money on booze and expensive cars. They still exist.

alexdbird 5mo ago
You can't deny it, mass is much more stylish in Latin ;)
- celebril 5mo ago
  It's only stylish because of the imagined qualities of prestige vested in a language you're not fluent in. It's the same as how you get English-speaking people realising how cringe-inducing anime dialogue really is when they hear it in English instead of Japanese, and then championing "the only REAL way of consuming anime is in Japanese dub!", not realising the Japanese used in that is also extremely cringey. People finding the mass somehow less holy and sacramental when celebrated in their native tongue need to reflect on their own perspectives on what makes something holy.
  - sdsd 5mo ago
    No, the Tridentine (Latin mass) has many other qualities aside from just being in Latin that make it pretty spectacular compared to the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II) mass. You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass. I'm not Catholic but everyone should attend Latin mass at least once just as an artistic experience.
    - celebril 5mo ago
      Oh I've been to Tridentine masses. I'm a church organist. I literally "play" a part in liturgies. I don't really see that much of a difference to be honest. A lot of people make a big fuss out of the details but the shape of the liturgy as a whole is practically the same.
    - throw0101c 5mo ago
      > You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass. Flying through the air is a remarkable thing, and people used to dress up for it. But as prices dropped it has become (in many parts of the world) the equivalent of a bus service, and people dress the same was for a flight as they do as going to (say) Walmart. If you do something often enough it can stop being special: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
  - themaninthedark 5mo ago
    I find (on average) the Japanese VA to be much better then the English VA, also if you know Japanese, yes the dialogue may still be cringy but you aren't having to deal with translators adding/changing things. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/just-according-to-keikaku https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/just-according-to-keikaku Yes I know that was fan-sub but it's the first example that comes to mind, I remember some drama from professionals as well.
  - 1718627440 5mo ago
    I think people regularly attending the mass in Latin, also understand it. Latin is able to just capture the meaning and relation of things much better, than other languages, there is an importance and brevity to expressions, that other language just don't have. Sometimes I wonder whether Latin was actually designed, but of course it was shaped through the millennia.
graemep 5mo ago
Historically Latin was also a common international language. Educated people could understand Latin across much of Europe. Not so great for the majority of people, of course. The article seems to indicate that in some places it was pretty widely understood. I think some rites of the church did use other languages such as Syriac. I knew about SSPX but not the Palmarians. They seem to be even odder and a cult. Interesting in the same way I find conspiracy theories interesting, so thanks.
- somenameforme 5mo ago
  Not just Europe. Well into relatively modern history educated individuals in America were expected to have fluency in Latin and frequently Greek as well. This [1] Harvard admission exam from 1869 immediately comes to mind. Applicants were expected to be able to pass that test, and the overwhelming majority did. [1] - https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvardexam.pdf https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvard...
  - mostertoaster 5mo ago
    The classical school movement in America is growing quite rapidly, and so maybe we start to see it again? My kids at least are all learning Latin, and later, Greek.
    - ai_slop_hater 5mo ago
      Audentes fortuna iuvat!
    - iso1631 5mo ago
      Classical greek and modern greek are quite different
    - oersted 5mo ago
      In Spain both are still taught in the standard high-school curriculum. Not everyone takes those classes of course, but Latin is one of the core optatives in the humanities path, it can be chosen in the university entrance exam as one of the core tests, and many students do pick it. It's not really taught as a foreign language though, it is used to teach fundamental concepts in linguistic analysis and translation, and it can be a legitimately valuable foundation to have a strong general literacy across romance languages. I'm not sure how common it is elsewhere, but Roman law also makes up a non-trivial fraction of the compulsory curriculum in the first years of studying law at university. Most of the concepts are still relevant, it's what all modern legal systems are founded on. I remember that a good friend of mine somehow avoided studying maths for the last four years of high-school by choosing all the alternatives, which included both Latin and ancient Greek. He was and still is a fantastic programmer despite hating maths though, obsessed with Linux distros from early teens.
iagooar 5mo ago
Besides the language being Latin vs local languages, there is one huge difference people don't know about. The Tridentine Mass has the priest facing toward the altar and the tabernacle, this is called "ad orientem". In "modern" day post-Second-Vatican-Council mass, the priest typically speaks the local language and faces the congregation.
- tecleandor 5mo ago
  That's it, I wasn't sure if I was imagining the "priest not looking at you" thing...
- wahern 5mo ago
  The modern mass can be done ad orientem. The switch of orientation was only permitted, not required, in the Novus Ordo. Most of the changes people associate with the Novus Ordo were completely optional and often not even expected to have become so common. This is why all the popes have been exasperated, to varying extents, with the Latin Mass movement. Literally nothing prevents dioceses from celebrating the Novus Ordo mass in Latin, ad orientem, chanting, etc.
  - troad 5mo ago
    Why would the Papacy be exasperated with the Latin Mass movement if it's merely celebrating one of the allowable options? (Genuine question, I'm sure I lack all context.)
    - wahern 5mo ago
      What's colloquially called the Latin Mass is the Tridentine Mass, which among other things uses a different calendar, including different biblical readings each week (a smaller selection of biblical passages than the Novus Ordo uses). So it's not just a variation of the Novus Ordo, though the Novus Ordo could be performed in a way that satisfies the vast majority of traditional-minded parishioners. It's exasperating because certain ideologues behind the movement are elevating small changes into pseudo-doctrinal issues that have a tendency to lead to schism. The Orthodox churches have fractured over the centuries over calendar related issues, for example. It's fundamentally traditionalism for traditionalism's sake, which is a little ironic because in many respects the Novus Ordo reverts the mass to an older form more similar to the practices of the church over a millennia ago, as well as more similar in some respects to Orthodox masses. If the Latin Mass advocates were serious, they'd engage with the Novus Ordo. For example, seek more uniformity--the Novus Ordo has too many optional variations, which means the mass might have different prayers in one geographic area than another, whereas the Tridentine Mass is more uniform. (See, e.g., https://lms.org.uk/missals https://lms.org.uk/missals) The fact they don't betrays some of the underlying motivations and dynamics. Another aspect mostly unrelated to the mass itself was the Second Vatican Council deemphasisizing the role of clerics and religious--nuns, religious sisters, etc. That's a whole 'nother thing, but it's a significant factor behind the movement. It's far more understandable, but again can be addressed directly, without the subterfuge. All institutional religions struggle with the tension between traditionalists and reformers; it's a form of politics. What has made the Roman Catholic church almost singularly unique has been it's ability to hold together so many people across diverse cultures and geographies. What's playing out now has played out many times before, though obviously the Roman Church has not always been successful at avoiding schism. Notably, though, it continues to keep in mind undoing previous schisms, and some choices made by the Second Vatican Council were focused on reconciliation, both with Protestant but also Orthodox churches. For example, the change in biblical readings seems to have been aimed at Protestantism--the readings in the US are coordinated through a group that includes representatives from, IIRC, Methodists and Episcopalians. Being less doctrinaire about some of the prayers in the Tridentine Mass was a way to affirm the validity of Orthodox rites.
baud147258 5mo ago
Though the mass introduced with Vatican II had a certain number of differences with the previous, Latin mass. Also while the Society of Saint Pius X excision still exists (and looking at their recent decision, will continue to be split from Rome's authority), I'd say that the majority of parishes celebrating the previous mass are under Rome's authority.

alexdbird 5mo ago

You can't deny it, mass is much more stylish in Latin ;)

celebril 5mo ago
It's only stylish because of the imagined qualities of prestige vested in a language you're not fluent in. It's the same as how you get English-speaking people realising how cringe-inducing anime dialogue really is when they hear it in English instead of Japanese, and then championing "the only REAL way of consuming anime is in Japanese dub!", not realising the Japanese used in that is also extremely cringey. People finding the mass somehow less holy and sacramental when celebrated in their native tongue need to reflect on their own perspectives on what makes something holy.
- sdsd 5mo ago
  No, the Tridentine (Latin mass) has many other qualities aside from just being in Latin that make it pretty spectacular compared to the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II) mass. You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass. I'm not Catholic but everyone should attend Latin mass at least once just as an artistic experience.
  - celebril 5mo ago
    Oh I've been to Tridentine masses. I'm a church organist. I literally "play" a part in liturgies. I don't really see that much of a difference to be honest. A lot of people make a big fuss out of the details but the shape of the liturgy as a whole is practically the same.
  - throw0101c 5mo ago
    > You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass. Flying through the air is a remarkable thing, and people used to dress up for it. But as prices dropped it has become (in many parts of the world) the equivalent of a bus service, and people dress the same was for a flight as they do as going to (say) Walmart. If you do something often enough it can stop being special: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
- themaninthedark 5mo ago
  I find (on average) the Japanese VA to be much better then the English VA, also if you know Japanese, yes the dialogue may still be cringy but you aren't having to deal with translators adding/changing things. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/just-according-to-keikaku https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/just-according-to-keikaku Yes I know that was fan-sub but it's the first example that comes to mind, I remember some drama from professionals as well.
- 1718627440 5mo ago
  I think people regularly attending the mass in Latin, also understand it. Latin is able to just capture the meaning and relation of things much better, than other languages, there is an importance and brevity to expressions, that other language just don't have. Sometimes I wonder whether Latin was actually designed, but of course it was shaped through the millennia.

graemep 5mo ago

Historically Latin was also a common international language. Educated people could understand Latin across much of Europe. Not so great for the majority of people, of course. The article seems to indicate that in some places it was pretty widely understood. I think some rites of the church did use other languages such as Syriac. I knew about SSPX but not the Palmarians. They seem to be even odder and a cult. Interesting in the same way I find conspiracy theories interesting, so thanks.

somenameforme 5mo ago
Not just Europe. Well into relatively modern history educated individuals in America were expected to have fluency in Latin and frequently Greek as well. This [1] Harvard admission exam from 1869 immediately comes to mind. Applicants were expected to be able to pass that test, and the overwhelming majority did. [1] - https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvardexam.pdf https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvard...
- mostertoaster 5mo ago
  The classical school movement in America is growing quite rapidly, and so maybe we start to see it again? My kids at least are all learning Latin, and later, Greek.
  - ai_slop_hater 5mo ago
    Audentes fortuna iuvat!
  - iso1631 5mo ago
    Classical greek and modern greek are quite different
  - oersted 5mo ago
    In Spain both are still taught in the standard high-school curriculum. Not everyone takes those classes of course, but Latin is one of the core optatives in the humanities path, it can be chosen in the university entrance exam as one of the core tests, and many students do pick it. It's not really taught as a foreign language though, it is used to teach fundamental concepts in linguistic analysis and translation, and it can be a legitimately valuable foundation to have a strong general literacy across romance languages. I'm not sure how common it is elsewhere, but Roman law also makes up a non-trivial fraction of the compulsory curriculum in the first years of studying law at university. Most of the concepts are still relevant, it's what all modern legal systems are founded on. I remember that a good friend of mine somehow avoided studying maths for the last four years of high-school by choosing all the alternatives, which included both Latin and ancient Greek. He was and still is a fantastic programmer despite hating maths though, obsessed with Linux distros from early teens.

iagooar 5mo ago

Besides the language being Latin vs local languages, there is one huge difference people don't know about. The Tridentine Mass has the priest facing toward the altar and the tabernacle, this is called "ad orientem". In "modern" day post-Second-Vatican-Council mass, the priest typically speaks the local language and faces the congregation.

tecleandor 5mo ago
That's it, I wasn't sure if I was imagining the "priest not looking at you" thing...
wahern 5mo ago
The modern mass can be done ad orientem. The switch of orientation was only permitted, not required, in the Novus Ordo. Most of the changes people associate with the Novus Ordo were completely optional and often not even expected to have become so common. This is why all the popes have been exasperated, to varying extents, with the Latin Mass movement. Literally nothing prevents dioceses from celebrating the Novus Ordo mass in Latin, ad orientem, chanting, etc.
- troad 5mo ago
  Why would the Papacy be exasperated with the Latin Mass movement if it's merely celebrating one of the allowable options? (Genuine question, I'm sure I lack all context.)
  - wahern 5mo ago
    What's colloquially called the Latin Mass is the Tridentine Mass, which among other things uses a different calendar, including different biblical readings each week (a smaller selection of biblical passages than the Novus Ordo uses). So it's not just a variation of the Novus Ordo, though the Novus Ordo could be performed in a way that satisfies the vast majority of traditional-minded parishioners. It's exasperating because certain ideologues behind the movement are elevating small changes into pseudo-doctrinal issues that have a tendency to lead to schism. The Orthodox churches have fractured over the centuries over calendar related issues, for example. It's fundamentally traditionalism for traditionalism's sake, which is a little ironic because in many respects the Novus Ordo reverts the mass to an older form more similar to the practices of the church over a millennia ago, as well as more similar in some respects to Orthodox masses. If the Latin Mass advocates were serious, they'd engage with the Novus Ordo. For example, seek more uniformity--the Novus Ordo has too many optional variations, which means the mass might have different prayers in one geographic area than another, whereas the Tridentine Mass is more uniform. (See, e.g., https://lms.org.uk/missals https://lms.org.uk/missals) The fact they don't betrays some of the underlying motivations and dynamics. Another aspect mostly unrelated to the mass itself was the Second Vatican Council deemphasisizing the role of clerics and religious--nuns, religious sisters, etc. That's a whole 'nother thing, but it's a significant factor behind the movement. It's far more understandable, but again can be addressed directly, without the subterfuge. All institutional religions struggle with the tension between traditionalists and reformers; it's a form of politics. What has made the Roman Catholic church almost singularly unique has been it's ability to hold together so many people across diverse cultures and geographies. What's playing out now has played out many times before, though obviously the Roman Church has not always been successful at avoiding schism. Notably, though, it continues to keep in mind undoing previous schisms, and some choices made by the Second Vatican Council were focused on reconciliation, both with Protestant but also Orthodox churches. For example, the change in biblical readings seems to have been aimed at Protestantism--the readings in the US are coordinated through a group that includes representatives from, IIRC, Methodists and Episcopalians. Being less doctrinaire about some of the prayers in the Tridentine Mass was a way to affirm the validity of Orthodox rites.

baud147258 5mo ago

Though the mass introduced with Vatican II had a certain number of differences with the previous, Latin mass. Also while the Society of Saint Pius X excision still exists (and looking at their recent decision, will continue to be split from Rome's authority), I'd say that the majority of parishes celebrating the previous mass are under Rome's authority.