3 ms·

You must be talking about Linux, the BSDs, sqlite, postgres, gcc, the mold linker, or let's take some new kids on the block: raddebugger, FilePilot, TaskSlinger

You must be talking about Linux, the BSDs, sqlite, postgres, gcc, the mold linker, or let's take some new kids on the block: raddebugger, FilePilot, TaskSlinger?

pjmlp 4mo ago
I am for example talking about LLVM and GCC, used to compile all those examples. Living in the past? GCC has long adopted C++, last time it compiled with a pure C compiler was back in 2011 thereabouts, not cross-checking the exact year. A few trees don't make a forest.
- jstimpfle 4mo ago
  Actually care to open GCC and see what I mean? Check the newest commits and see what they do. Maybe you're living in a dream world where some magic language features do the work for you. Meanwhile people out in the field do actual work by just pushing bytes at the low level.
  - pjmlp 4mo ago
    To use the developers own words, > Necessary to bootstrap GCC. GCC 5.4 or newer has sufficient support for used C++14 features. > Versions of GCC prior to 15 allow bootstrapping with an ISO C++11 compiler, versions prior to 10.5 allow bootstrapping with an ISO C++98 compiler, and versions prior to 4.8 allow bootstrapping with an ISO C89 compiler. > If you need to build an intermediate version of GCC in order to bootstrap current GCC, consider GCC 9.5: it can build the current D compiler, and was also the version that declared C++17 support stable. https://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html https://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html So yeah, if you want to enjoy GCC 4.8... Now I can bother to show exactly each source file, but Github search is relatively easy to use on the mirror source code.
    - jstimpfle 4mo ago
      Why are you unable to get my point? I understand that GCC doesn't compile with plain C compiler anymore. A lot of my own code doesn't! I'm saying that most of features like templates, constexpr, reflection etc. don't scale well to serious use, as a broad statement. I fully acknowledge this is not a black and white situation. But I encourage you to look at actual pedestrian code, it's mostly not abstracted fluffy magic template code at all. It's pushing individual bytes with totally basic means (mostly C code). Why? Because code using these fluffy features is terribly hard to maintain. Templates lock you in their own language world with incredibly bad syntax and bad ergonomics, in short: it's a pain! Personally I think even C++ classes (i.e. 1980's C++) are unusable because they bifurcate syntax/semantics needlessly and add implicit invisible scope. But I acknowledge it's somewhat possible to program with classes, and some people like to lean on RAII heavily. I mostly do not like to use RAII, and I've tried many times, I think it sucks for non-toy programming, even though obviously the idea is intuitive.
      - pjmlp 4mo ago
        Because I am having this conversation with C folks since comp.lang.c and com.lang.c.moderated days. C++ was perfectly usable already within the constraints of DR/MS-DOS 5.0 powered PC hardware with Borland compilers, instead of plain old C. Fluffy features power the AI revolution infrastructure.
        jstimpfle 4mo ago
        Congratulations, empty marketing speech, not reacting to what I say.

You must be talking about Linux, the BSDs, sqlite, postgres, gcc, the mold linker, or let's take some new kids on the block: raddebugger, FilePilot, TaskSlinger?

pjmlp 4mo ago

I am for example talking about LLVM and GCC, used to compile all those examples. Living in the past? GCC has long adopted C++, last time it compiled with a pure C compiler was back in 2011 thereabouts, not cross-checking the exact year. A few trees don't make a forest.

jstimpfle 4mo ago
Actually care to open GCC and see what I mean? Check the newest commits and see what they do. Maybe you're living in a dream world where some magic language features do the work for you. Meanwhile people out in the field do actual work by just pushing bytes at the low level.
- pjmlp 4mo ago
  To use the developers own words, > Necessary to bootstrap GCC. GCC 5.4 or newer has sufficient support for used C++14 features. > Versions of GCC prior to 15 allow bootstrapping with an ISO C++11 compiler, versions prior to 10.5 allow bootstrapping with an ISO C++98 compiler, and versions prior to 4.8 allow bootstrapping with an ISO C89 compiler. > If you need to build an intermediate version of GCC in order to bootstrap current GCC, consider GCC 9.5: it can build the current D compiler, and was also the version that declared C++17 support stable. https://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html https://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html So yeah, if you want to enjoy GCC 4.8... Now I can bother to show exactly each source file, but Github search is relatively easy to use on the mirror source code.
  - jstimpfle 4mo ago
    Why are you unable to get my point? I understand that GCC doesn't compile with plain C compiler anymore. A lot of my own code doesn't! I'm saying that most of features like templates, constexpr, reflection etc. don't scale well to serious use, as a broad statement. I fully acknowledge this is not a black and white situation. But I encourage you to look at actual pedestrian code, it's mostly not abstracted fluffy magic template code at all. It's pushing individual bytes with totally basic means (mostly C code). Why? Because code using these fluffy features is terribly hard to maintain. Templates lock you in their own language world with incredibly bad syntax and bad ergonomics, in short: it's a pain! Personally I think even C++ classes (i.e. 1980's C++) are unusable because they bifurcate syntax/semantics needlessly and add implicit invisible scope. But I acknowledge it's somewhat possible to program with classes, and some people like to lean on RAII heavily. I mostly do not like to use RAII, and I've tried many times, I think it sucks for non-toy programming, even though obviously the idea is intuitive.
    - pjmlp 4mo ago
      Because I am having this conversation with C folks since comp.lang.c and com.lang.c.moderated days. C++ was perfectly usable already within the constraints of DR/MS-DOS 5.0 powered PC hardware with Borland compilers, instead of plain old C. Fluffy features power the AI revolution infrastructure.
      - jstimpfle 4mo ago
        Congratulations, empty marketing speech, not reacting to what I say.