4 ms·

The fact that birth rate is so low in countries with good social security safe net suggests that the society isn't paying enough.

hn_throwaway_99 4mo ago
Not necessarily. It's possible that no amount of money would solve this problem. Birth control inherently broke the previously built evolutionary mechanism that insured that the extremely strong built in desire for sex would result in kids. That's no longer the case, and a lot of people would decide to not have kids even if money were no object. As you point out, Finland famously has incredible family support, and also a birth rate under 1.3.
- condis 4mo ago
  [dead]
  - cindyllm 4mo ago
    [dead]
  - lokar 4mo ago
    One possibility is that wealthy people with few (often just 1) child, a stable home life, fewer financial pressures, etc spend a lot more time on the child. And this keeps them out of trouble more often. Also, a lot of the education around avoiding pregnancy is about the financial future of the child (eg getting present in high school will ruin your life). For that to have an impact, the child has to think they have some kind of future.
  - _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
    'having a child removes your future opportunity so don't have a child until you are ready' resonates more with people with future opportunity.
    - condis 4mo ago
      [dead]
theragra 4mo ago
Afaik according to research, the only thing that helps is 1. Lump sum, pretty big (like year worth of salary or close) payment on birth 2. Works for first child only. That's it. So, it kinda works, but very limited. Increasing sum did not increase birthrates, if I remember correctly.
- myrmidon 4mo ago
  This sounds extremely plausible to me, but I would be very careful about conclusions from such studies, because I believe the general expectations of society as a whole regarding child-raising matter a lot and you can't easily quantify that. Anecdotally, when my grandmother did not birth a child for two consecutive years in her thirties the village priest came to investigate (!!). Expectations have shifted massively since, and the single/dink lifestyle is way more "acceptable" now.
- lokar 4mo ago
  And often the payment merely changes the timing of the child

hn_throwaway_99 4mo ago

Not necessarily. It's possible that no amount of money would solve this problem. Birth control inherently broke the previously built evolutionary mechanism that insured that the extremely strong built in desire for sex would result in kids. That's no longer the case, and a lot of people would decide to not have kids even if money were no object. As you point out, Finland famously has incredible family support, and also a birth rate under 1.3.

condis 4mo ago
[dead]
- cindyllm 4mo ago
  [dead]
- lokar 4mo ago
  One possibility is that wealthy people with few (often just 1) child, a stable home life, fewer financial pressures, etc spend a lot more time on the child. And this keeps them out of trouble more often. Also, a lot of the education around avoiding pregnancy is about the financial future of the child (eg getting present in high school will ruin your life). For that to have an impact, the child has to think they have some kind of future.
- _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
  'having a child removes your future opportunity so don't have a child until you are ready' resonates more with people with future opportunity.
  - condis 4mo ago
    [dead]

theragra 4mo ago

Afaik according to research, the only thing that helps is 1. Lump sum, pretty big (like year worth of salary or close) payment on birth 2. Works for first child only. That's it. So, it kinda works, but very limited. Increasing sum did not increase birthrates, if I remember correctly.

myrmidon 4mo ago
This sounds extremely plausible to me, but I would be very careful about conclusions from such studies, because I believe the general expectations of society as a whole regarding child-raising matter a lot and you can't easily quantify that. Anecdotally, when my grandmother did not birth a child for two consecutive years in her thirties the village priest came to investigate (!!). Expectations have shifted massively since, and the single/dink lifestyle is way more "acceptable" now.
lokar 4mo ago
And often the payment merely changes the timing of the child