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To hell with using vision based AI for web accessibility. it really isn't that hard to get right. Semantic html is already accessible. ARIA can help when devs

To hell with using vision based AI for web accessibility. it really isn't that hard to get right. Semantic html is already accessible. ARIA can help when devs want to use the wrong elements for some reason or for custom controls.

nailer 4mo ago
> it really isn't that hard to get right. Yes you just need every website to use it, rather than fixing the client. Which is the 'boil the ocean' strategy mentioned in the comment you're replying to. > ARIA can help when devs want to use the wrong elements for some reason or for custom controls. But it can't. See this article.
- rhdunn 4mo ago
  See https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/ https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/ for a guide on how to create accessible markup for custom controls and the associated examples. See specifically https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descriptions/ https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descript... for details on naming. That has extensive notes and details for labeling elements correctly. See https://getbootstrap.com/docs/5.0/components/ https://getbootstrap.com/docs/5.0/components/ for bootstrap markup on creating accessible components. There are plenty of other resources.
  - nailer 4mo ago
    I didn't ask for resources on ARIA, are you replying to another comment?
    - rhdunn 4mo ago
      You said "see this article" re: how aria-label is not applicable to div elements, hence the second link which is the WAI-ARIA guide on labelling elements. You also said that ARIA can't help with custom controls in that post, which is where the other links are applicable as they describe doing just that. I.e. using ARIA tags to implement tabs, accordions, etc. either with or without a framework library.
      - nailer 4mo ago
        > You also said that ARIA can't help with custom controls in that post I didn't write the post. The author believes in ARIA, I believe ARIA is fundamentally broken.
        rhdunn 4mo ago
        post != article From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281764: > > ARIA can help when devs want to use the wrong elements for some reason or for custom controls. > But it can't. See this article.
        nailer 4mo ago
        People post both articles and comments to HN. My comment pointed out that ARIA can't help with anything as ARIA is a boil the ocean approach.
        RobMurray 4mo ago
        ARIA is a solution to a specific problem, not something that should be used on every site. HTML is accessible out of the box when semantic elements are used as intended. If you are using a div as a button, you probably aren't hand writing HTML. It is likely part of a library. Adding the necessary ARIA attributes benefits every site using the library. Your boiling the ocean analogy implies that every web developer needs to scatter ARIA attributes all over their code, which just isn't true.
- RobMurray 4mo ago
  I did read the article. Why do you need to label a div? It's just a container, not a semantic element. If you really want to use a div for something semantic you can set role and aria-label. That is done all the time and works with screen readers.

nailer 4mo ago

> it really isn't that hard to get right. Yes you just need every website to use it, rather than fixing the client. Which is the 'boil the ocean' strategy mentioned in the comment you're replying to. > ARIA can help when devs want to use the wrong elements for some reason or for custom controls. But it can't. See this article.

rhdunn 4mo ago
See https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/ https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/ for a guide on how to create accessible markup for custom controls and the associated examples. See specifically https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descriptions/ https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descript... for details on naming. That has extensive notes and details for labeling elements correctly. See https://getbootstrap.com/docs/5.0/components/ https://getbootstrap.com/docs/5.0/components/ for bootstrap markup on creating accessible components. There are plenty of other resources.
- nailer 4mo ago
  I didn't ask for resources on ARIA, are you replying to another comment?
  - rhdunn 4mo ago
    You said "see this article" re: how aria-label is not applicable to div elements, hence the second link which is the WAI-ARIA guide on labelling elements. You also said that ARIA can't help with custom controls in that post, which is where the other links are applicable as they describe doing just that. I.e. using ARIA tags to implement tabs, accordions, etc. either with or without a framework library.
    - nailer 4mo ago
      > You also said that ARIA can't help with custom controls in that post I didn't write the post. The author believes in ARIA, I believe ARIA is fundamentally broken.
      - rhdunn 4mo ago
        post != article From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281764: > > ARIA can help when devs want to use the wrong elements for some reason or for custom controls. > But it can't. See this article.
        nailer 4mo ago
        People post both articles and comments to HN. My comment pointed out that ARIA can't help with anything as ARIA is a boil the ocean approach.
        RobMurray 4mo ago
        ARIA is a solution to a specific problem, not something that should be used on every site. HTML is accessible out of the box when semantic elements are used as intended. If you are using a div as a button, you probably aren't hand writing HTML. It is likely part of a library. Adding the necessary ARIA attributes benefits every site using the library. Your boiling the ocean analogy implies that every web developer needs to scatter ARIA attributes all over their code, which just isn't true.
RobMurray 4mo ago
I did read the article. Why do you need to label a div? It's just a container, not a semantic element. If you really want to use a div for something semantic you can set role and aria-label. That is done all the time and works with screen readers.