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> it did not automatically lead to the abolishment of slavery, a lack of discrimination and the women vote That's not the point. The point is that, in 100 yea

by csense 14y ago

> it did not automatically lead to the abolishment of slavery, a lack of discrimination and the women vote That's not the point. The point is that, in 100 years, some of the things that you, me and most of our friends think today might turn out to have been terrible, shortsighted, bigoted groupthink mistakes that resulted in the oppression of millions of people. We aren't doing it on purpose, of course. We try to be as vigilant as we can about that sort of error by constantly considering different ideas and questioning our own assumptions, prejudices, and cultural habits. It's hard to do that if it's illegal to talk about different ideas, or say that we might be headed in the wrong direction. And if it turns out that, despite our best efforts, we can't see the truth which will eventually emerge -- then we shouldn't compound the evils caused by our wrongheaded beliefs by using the power of the state to silence our critics.

jacquesm 14y ago
> That's not the point. Well, then maybe you should not have used those as examples to bolster your argument. As it is they don't hold water. > The point is that, in 100 years, some of the things that you, me and most of our friends think today might turn out to have been terrible, shortsighted, bigoted groupthink mistakes that resulted in the oppression of millions of people. So, please name some examples where free speech in the United States right now gives it the moral high ground on some subject, higher ground than that reached in countries without free speech by your definition, but otherwise functional democracies (i.e. a very large number of countries). > We aren't doing it on purpose, of course. Right now, in your country there are lots of groups actively promoting hatred behind the fig-leaf of free speech, and there are a lot of issues that are not being resolved with people purposely obstructing others in spite of free speech. The correlation between 'free speech' meaningful progress on any of these fronts is not visible to me as an outsider. > It's hard to do that if it's illegal to talk about different ideas, or say that we might be headed in the wrong direction. There are a large number of countries that do not have American style 'free speech' where talking about different ideas or saying that you're headed in the wrong direction is not illegal. > And if it turns out that, despite our best efforts, we can't see the truth which will eventually emerge -- then we shouldn't compound the evils caused by our wrongheaded beliefs by using the power of the state to silence our critics. There are more options than Iran, North Korea and The United States. Many of those options are perfectly workable and produce societies that are morally speaking the equivalent or the superior of the United States. Feel free to lecture the rest of us on how well Free Speech works when you have your house in order, until then it is just one more factor in a very large number of factors. It is a positive factor, but when you fail on so many other fronts that its effect fades into insignificance you might as well not have it.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Feel free to lecture the rest of us on how well Free Speech works when you have your house in order I don't think any country including the US is exempt from criticism -- very strong criticism, at that -- on a variety of fronts. Several people here have tried to derail the discussion into areas such as slavery, women's suffrage, the Second Amendment, torture, or whatever, but those are all offtopic for the (sub)thread. Our house is not "in order," and neither is yours or anyone else's, so what's the point in dragging out a laundry list of unrelated accusations?

by csense 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

> That's not the point. Well, then maybe you should not have used those as examples to bolster your argument. As it is they don't hold water. > The point is that, in 100 years, some of the things that you, me and most of our friends think today might turn out to have been terrible, shortsighted, bigoted groupthink mistakes that resulted in the oppression of millions of people. So, please name some examples where free speech in the United States right now gives it the moral high ground on some subject, higher ground than that reached in countries without free speech by your definition, but otherwise functional democracies (i.e. a very large number of countries). > We aren't doing it on purpose, of course. Right now, in your country there are lots of groups actively promoting hatred behind the fig-leaf of free speech, and there are a lot of issues that are not being resolved with people purposely obstructing others in spite of free speech. The correlation between 'free speech' meaningful progress on any of these fronts is not visible to me as an outsider. > It's hard to do that if it's illegal to talk about different ideas, or say that we might be headed in the wrong direction. There are a large number of countries that do not have American style 'free speech' where talking about different ideas or saying that you're headed in the wrong direction is not illegal. > And if it turns out that, despite our best efforts, we can't see the truth which will eventually emerge -- then we shouldn't compound the evils caused by our wrongheaded beliefs by using the power of the state to silence our critics. There are more options than Iran, North Korea and The United States. Many of those options are perfectly workable and produce societies that are morally speaking the equivalent or the superior of the United States. Feel free to lecture the rest of us on how well Free Speech works when you have your house in order, until then it is just one more factor in a very large number of factors. It is a positive factor, but when you fail on so many other fronts that its effect fades into insignificance you might as well not have it.

CamperBob2 14y ago
Feel free to lecture the rest of us on how well Free Speech works when you have your house in order I don't think any country including the US is exempt from criticism -- very strong criticism, at that -- on a variety of fronts. Several people here have tried to derail the discussion into areas such as slavery, women's suffrage, the Second Amendment, torture, or whatever, but those are all offtopic for the (sub)thread. Our house is not "in order," and neither is yours or anyone else's, so what's the point in dragging out a laundry list of unrelated accusations?