4 ms·

What you're saying is just factually incorrect. Data centers absolutely are loud and they're disruptive. They're not good for the environment. They consume lar

by CPLX 4mo ago

What you're saying is just factually incorrect. Data centers absolutely are loud and they're disruptive. They're not good for the environment. They consume large quantities of water, typically, and huge, absolutely staggering amounts of energy, which typically has the effect of raising rates for everybody else by driving up demand and causing capital infrastructure needs that are financed by everybody, not just the data center. There is absolutely widespread dislike for data center construction in basically every region spanning almost every political axis in the United States right now. There's polling on it. It's abysmal. The assumption that all these people are stupid sheep probably won't be a productive way to approach this public policy question.

tptacek 4mo ago
They do not in fact consume large quantities of water, and "they consume lots of water" is a pretty good shibboleth for "this isn't going to be a productive discussion". Golf courses in the US consume more than 8x the water of all data centers combined. Obviously, that's my response to your polling claims as well: people getting polled thing data centers are consuming all the water.
- juliusdavies 4mo ago
  It would make more sense to complain about plants consuming sunlight than it does to complain about data centers consuming water.
- CPLX 4mo ago
  You guys really don't get it, do you? You've got these people going on TV and doing interviews saying that this new technology will be capable of replacing huge amounts of jobs. The people that say that most jobs will be eliminated by AI are making direct threats of violence against the families of millions of people. Telling someone that they will no longer have any way of feeding their children is telling them that you're going to kill their family. I'm not saying this to convince you that that's true. You could make some counter-arguments to that, and I'm sure people will come along and do that. The point is to understand it that that's how it's perceived by the people hearing it. And then to add insult to injury, they want to come do it in your town. They want to pitch a giant "development" project. But remember nobody ever wants “development” except for the fact that it might bring jobs and economic growth, to them, not you living somewhere else. Meanwhile, you've already told them that the reason we need so many more data centers all of a sudden is specifically so that we can eliminate whatever jobs are left that we didn't get a chance to eliminate over the last several decades when we exported most of the jobs we could to different countries. By the way we're the same assholes who said "trust us" last time, and pitched the idea that it would lead to a prosperous future for everyone. Instead you made money off sending the jobs to china, capturing all excess value with software, and addicting our children to opioids. And your next exciting offer for us is a giant windowless building that will take up open land, nature, and yes, water and electricity, and employ almost nobody. People don't feel like they control a whole lot, but they do have some ability to complain about this thing happening where they live. The actions of people opposing these data centers are completely rational. If I'm trying to make one point, that's it. The actually interesting part of this back and forth on HN is that Silicon Valley (aka "tech") culture has grown so fundamentally rotten at its core that not only do people not have values that place humans first, they can't even recognize when other people do.
  - tptacek 4mo ago
    You could just say "I concede the point on water but stand by the rest of what I wrote". Instead, all this.
    - CPLX 4mo ago
      My original post that started this discussion did not mention water: > The ratio of jobs and taxes to local resources tied up has to be one of the worst possible trade-offs of any industrial use that you can envision. That is precisely why data centers are proving to be profoundly unpopular. Nonetheless I can see that fixating on this instead of my obviously correct point which is that people absolutely hate data centers and the sociopathic tech billionaires behind them for rational reasons is a good dodge. Hardly unexpected when I am posting on the promotional discussion board of a private equity firm responsible for launching many of these sociopaths into society. My later comment about water usage is both unneeded for that point to stand and trivially proven true.
      - tptacek 4mo ago
        It can't just be that we disagree about this issue; no, it must be the "private equity firm's" fault.
        CPLX 4mo ago
        This is a story about Microsoft building data centers and people opposing it. So yes, one of the two key players here is the heavily financed tech sector. Starting to think these disingenuous replies are in fact the point here. Since none of of these conversations on HN make much difference anyways, my only hope is that one person, somewhere, who is a part of the "tech community" that usually gathers here (and of which I am a longtime member) becomes newly aware that people fucking hate us now for excellent and extremely well-supported reasons and thinks a little about how that happened and how they might change it.
        tptacek 4mo ago
gottorf 4mo ago
> The assumption that all these people are stupid sheep probably won't be a productive way to approach this public policy question I agree, and I do not assume that these people are stupid sheep. However, having said that: > Data centers absolutely are loud Compared to undeveloped land, sure. Compared to other uses of industrially-zoned land? Most likely not. I've been to a lot of datacenters. They're not very loud from the outside. > They consume large quantities of water I honestly do not understand why they don't just build closed-loop systems, or geothermal where they have a closed loop with the ground acting as the heat sink. Open-loop systems where they consume water just to evaporate sounds stupid to me. But I don't know how common that is. Politicians showing off in front of the camera with a dirty jug of water, of course, is just grandstanding and has no real relation to datacenters other than they made construction happen. > huge, absolutely staggering amounts of energy, which typically has the effect of raising rates for everybody else This isn't just true of datacenters. They're building an aluminum plant near me that will consume on the order of 100+ MW, which is comparable to a fairly large DC. Any other large industrial plant would consume a lot of electricity, but nobody's blaming them for utility capital investment needs.

by CPLX 4mo ago

tptacek 4mo ago

They do not in fact consume large quantities of water, and "they consume lots of water" is a pretty good shibboleth for "this isn't going to be a productive discussion". Golf courses in the US consume more than 8x the water of all data centers combined. Obviously, that's my response to your polling claims as well: people getting polled thing data centers are consuming all the water.

juliusdavies 4mo ago
It would make more sense to complain about plants consuming sunlight than it does to complain about data centers consuming water.
CPLX 4mo ago
You guys really don't get it, do you? You've got these people going on TV and doing interviews saying that this new technology will be capable of replacing huge amounts of jobs. The people that say that most jobs will be eliminated by AI are making direct threats of violence against the families of millions of people. Telling someone that they will no longer have any way of feeding their children is telling them that you're going to kill their family. I'm not saying this to convince you that that's true. You could make some counter-arguments to that, and I'm sure people will come along and do that. The point is to understand it that that's how it's perceived by the people hearing it. And then to add insult to injury, they want to come do it in your town. They want to pitch a giant "development" project. But remember nobody ever wants “development” except for the fact that it might bring jobs and economic growth, to them, not you living somewhere else. Meanwhile, you've already told them that the reason we need so many more data centers all of a sudden is specifically so that we can eliminate whatever jobs are left that we didn't get a chance to eliminate over the last several decades when we exported most of the jobs we could to different countries. By the way we're the same assholes who said "trust us" last time, and pitched the idea that it would lead to a prosperous future for everyone. Instead you made money off sending the jobs to china, capturing all excess value with software, and addicting our children to opioids. And your next exciting offer for us is a giant windowless building that will take up open land, nature, and yes, water and electricity, and employ almost nobody. People don't feel like they control a whole lot, but they do have some ability to complain about this thing happening where they live. The actions of people opposing these data centers are completely rational. If I'm trying to make one point, that's it. The actually interesting part of this back and forth on HN is that Silicon Valley (aka "tech") culture has grown so fundamentally rotten at its core that not only do people not have values that place humans first, they can't even recognize when other people do.
- tptacek 4mo ago
  You could just say "I concede the point on water but stand by the rest of what I wrote". Instead, all this.
  - CPLX 4mo ago
    My original post that started this discussion did not mention water: > The ratio of jobs and taxes to local resources tied up has to be one of the worst possible trade-offs of any industrial use that you can envision. That is precisely why data centers are proving to be profoundly unpopular. Nonetheless I can see that fixating on this instead of my obviously correct point which is that people absolutely hate data centers and the sociopathic tech billionaires behind them for rational reasons is a good dodge. Hardly unexpected when I am posting on the promotional discussion board of a private equity firm responsible for launching many of these sociopaths into society. My later comment about water usage is both unneeded for that point to stand and trivially proven true.
    - tptacek 4mo ago
      It can't just be that we disagree about this issue; no, it must be the "private equity firm's" fault.
      - CPLX 4mo ago
        This is a story about Microsoft building data centers and people opposing it. So yes, one of the two key players here is the heavily financed tech sector. Starting to think these disingenuous replies are in fact the point here. Since none of of these conversations on HN make much difference anyways, my only hope is that one person, somewhere, who is a part of the "tech community" that usually gathers here (and of which I am a longtime member) becomes newly aware that people fucking hate us now for excellent and extremely well-supported reasons and thinks a little about how that happened and how they might change it.
        tptacek 4mo ago

gottorf 4mo ago

> The assumption that all these people are stupid sheep probably won't be a productive way to approach this public policy question I agree, and I do not assume that these people are stupid sheep. However, having said that: > Data centers absolutely are loud Compared to undeveloped land, sure. Compared to other uses of industrially-zoned land? Most likely not. I've been to a lot of datacenters. They're not very loud from the outside. > They consume large quantities of water I honestly do not understand why they don't just build closed-loop systems, or geothermal where they have a closed loop with the ground acting as the heat sink. Open-loop systems where they consume water just to evaporate sounds stupid to me. But I don't know how common that is. Politicians showing off in front of the camera with a dirty jug of water, of course, is just grandstanding and has no real relation to datacenters other than they made construction happen. > huge, absolutely staggering amounts of energy, which typically has the effect of raising rates for everybody else This isn't just true of datacenters. They're building an aluminum plant near me that will consume on the order of 100+ MW, which is comparable to a fairly large DC. Any other large industrial plant would consume a lot of electricity, but nobody's blaming them for utility capital investment needs.