4 ms·

Type-erasure does have an inherent overhead. Sure, optimizations can be made, but they can be fickle and specialization is basically implicit monomorphization.

Type-erasure does have an inherent overhead. Sure, optimizations can be made, but they can be fickle and specialization is basically implicit monomorphization. Using C macros to replicate Rust's monomorphism has several drawbacks: they are inherently unhygienic, even in comparison to Rust's own; you can't set type-bounds; they aren't even a part of C proper, etc. I prefer Rust's approach with the choice between generics, macros, dyn and Any.

uecker 5mo ago
What inherent overhead does type-erasure have? The optimizer can always specialize just like for monomorphization. The difference is that it does not have to do this. Monomorphization specializes everything before the optimizer even has a chance to look the the code. So it fundamentally can not have advantages, only restrictions. C macros are certainly a proper part of C and one can also certainly add type-bounds. But yes, they are not ideal. Still, if one wanted to do this, one could certainly improve them a lot for type-generic programming. I would prefer this to having macros, generics, a const expression sublanguage, and vtables.
- fluffybucktsnek 5mo ago
  The inherent overhead of type-erasure is the vtable. Which is funny, because you said you prefer one over the other at the end, when they are basically synonymous. The compiler may choose to devirtualize and specialize, but that isn't guaranteed. If you want this behavior, &dyn does the exact same thing. Specialization provides more opportunities for optimizations, whereas proper type-erasure (which bars specialization optimizations) doesn't due to lack of type information. "C macros" are a part of the preprocessor, which runs before the actual C compiler. As such, it lacks all semantical information the C compiler would have at that point, such as function implementions. In practice, macros in C serve two purposes: manipulating C source code (which Rust macros can also do, but with more hygiene); specialization polymorphism, but worse (in which both Rust's generics and C++ templates do better).
  - uecker 5mo ago
    The vtable can be removed in all cases where you specialize by monomorphization, so the overhead compared to it is not really inherent. Type-erasure can be undone by specialization. In contrast, monomorphization specializes the code first, at which point it becomes much more difficult to unify it again. Sorry, my comment about preference was badly phrased: What I meant is that I prefer to make macros better, than having all the different but partially overlapping techniques in the same language. This is the complexity I am complaining about in both C++ and Rust.
    - fluffybucktsnek 5mo ago
      As I stated in my follow up, vtables can only be removed when the type information is still available, which, generally, aligns with specialization, except when dealing with libraries (even with LTO). You say the "vtable can be removed in all cases of monorphization", but that isn't guaranteed and often requires double guessing the compiler to ensure it still knows the type, where as monorphization makes it explicit when the compiler doesn't know the type anymore and that specialization must occur. The problem with your suggestion about macros is that it misunderstands the reason why different techniques exist. While they may overlap, they have different primary niches: Rust macros provide codegen and inline DSL, Rust generics/C++ templates provide monomorphism, C++ constexpr/Rust const fn evaluate expressions in compile time, etc. Extending preprocessor macros, aside from requiring integration into the C language proper, would likely create something much more complex and with poor DX. Specially so if it tries to fulfill all niches, as each of them often operate at different abstraction levels, with different ergonomic requirements that are often at odds with each other.
  - fluffybucktsnek 5mo ago
    I just noticed you said "The compiler can always specialize". That's indisputably false. That only happens if the compiler has enough information to infer the concrete type at the call point. Conditionals, collections, or anything that may throw doubt about original type info and their function implementations can (and normally will) disable specialization.

uecker 5mo ago

What inherent overhead does type-erasure have? The optimizer can always specialize just like for monomorphization. The difference is that it does not have to do this. Monomorphization specializes everything before the optimizer even has a chance to look the the code. So it fundamentally can not have advantages, only restrictions. C macros are certainly a proper part of C and one can also certainly add type-bounds. But yes, they are not ideal. Still, if one wanted to do this, one could certainly improve them a lot for type-generic programming. I would prefer this to having macros, generics, a const expression sublanguage, and vtables.

fluffybucktsnek 5mo ago
The inherent overhead of type-erasure is the vtable. Which is funny, because you said you prefer one over the other at the end, when they are basically synonymous. The compiler may choose to devirtualize and specialize, but that isn't guaranteed. If you want this behavior, &dyn does the exact same thing. Specialization provides more opportunities for optimizations, whereas proper type-erasure (which bars specialization optimizations) doesn't due to lack of type information. "C macros" are a part of the preprocessor, which runs before the actual C compiler. As such, it lacks all semantical information the C compiler would have at that point, such as function implementions. In practice, macros in C serve two purposes: manipulating C source code (which Rust macros can also do, but with more hygiene); specialization polymorphism, but worse (in which both Rust's generics and C++ templates do better).
- uecker 5mo ago
  The vtable can be removed in all cases where you specialize by monomorphization, so the overhead compared to it is not really inherent. Type-erasure can be undone by specialization. In contrast, monomorphization specializes the code first, at which point it becomes much more difficult to unify it again. Sorry, my comment about preference was badly phrased: What I meant is that I prefer to make macros better, than having all the different but partially overlapping techniques in the same language. This is the complexity I am complaining about in both C++ and Rust.
  - fluffybucktsnek 5mo ago
    As I stated in my follow up, vtables can only be removed when the type information is still available, which, generally, aligns with specialization, except when dealing with libraries (even with LTO). You say the "vtable can be removed in all cases of monorphization", but that isn't guaranteed and often requires double guessing the compiler to ensure it still knows the type, where as monorphization makes it explicit when the compiler doesn't know the type anymore and that specialization must occur. The problem with your suggestion about macros is that it misunderstands the reason why different techniques exist. While they may overlap, they have different primary niches: Rust macros provide codegen and inline DSL, Rust generics/C++ templates provide monomorphism, C++ constexpr/Rust const fn evaluate expressions in compile time, etc. Extending preprocessor macros, aside from requiring integration into the C language proper, would likely create something much more complex and with poor DX. Specially so if it tries to fulfill all niches, as each of them often operate at different abstraction levels, with different ergonomic requirements that are often at odds with each other.
- fluffybucktsnek 5mo ago
  I just noticed you said "The compiler can always specialize". That's indisputably false. That only happens if the compiler has enough information to infer the concrete type at the call point. Conditionals, collections, or anything that may throw doubt about original type info and their function implementations can (and normally will) disable specialization.