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Canada losing top talent as workers head to the U.S.
- yawnxyz 5mo agothat's what happens when your only industries are cooking oil, actual oil, and real estate
- throwaway_2494 5mo agoOk, but how does your hypothetical scenario apply to Canada though?
- throwaway-blaze 5mo ago[flagged]
- throwaway_2494 5mo agoOk if you say so he's not racist, but you can keep him nonetheless.
- TMWNN 5mo agoI've heard Canada described as three mining companies standing on each other wearing a trenchcoat.
- defrost 5mo agoNot bad, although it seriously undercounts the sheer number of Canadian (and other) mineral resource companies calling the Toronto TSX home and ignores the fossil fuel energy extraction behemoths. Juice Media: Honest Government Ad | Visit Canada https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7s-BgfcFXw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7s-BgfcFXw
- windowshopping 5mo agoIs this new? I thought this had been the case for decades.
- grapeape25 5mo agoNot new at all. Articles have been spouting this for a long time. Anecdotally, a lot of us return to Canada after a short stint in the US. Speaking as a Waterloo grad that moved to the US for about 5 years post graduation. Many of my university classmates did something similar.
- varun_ch 5mo agoAs a current Waterloo student (who is not particularly tied to any specific place). I’m curious about this and I’d like to know more. Why US for 5 years and why back?
- throwaway_2494 5mo agoIt's a myth that US income tax is always lower than in Canada. I worked in the US for a bit when I started out. I paid more income tax in CT than in Toronto on the same salary. I just wanted to come back home. Even in small town CT, there were areas we were told to stay away from after dark.
- afavour 5mo agoCan’t speak for the OP but it’s often about what’s most valuable at different points in life. Depending on where you are in the US, having kids can be a formidable experience. Poor leave, expensive childcare, etc etc. It can change the calculation for whether the extra money in the US is actually worth it.
- varun_ch 5mo agoThat’s fair. I can see a lot of reasons to stay in Canada over the US for long term plans. Although it feels like all of the desirable jobs (in terms of technical interestingness and pay) are in the US. At least for internships.
- blindriver 5mo agoI'm sorry but is this an article from the late 1990s? I'm also from Canada and I know tons of Canadians that have come here since the 90s. I even known immigrants to Canada from other countries (mainly China and India) that came to the US via Canada, using the TN1 or H1B visas after getting their Canadian citizenships. The biggest problem Canada has is that any moderately successful tech worker is going to be dead-set on trying to get into the US because the Canadian tech scene can't compare based on base pay, annual bonus, starting equity or refreshers, etc. I make more money than all my friends combined. One of my friends is a teacher in Toronto and my annual bonus is more than his entire yearly salary. I'm sure a lot of Canadian tech workers would repatriate and foreign workers would immigrate to Canada if they could lower taxes across the board and make life easier for tech companies and workers. There's literally trillions of dollars in tech ideas that could have been created in Canada but all of the founders left for the US.
- loloquwowndueo 5mo ago> I make more money than all my friends combined Get richer friends! Problem solved!
- Majromax 5mo ago> I'm sure a lot of Canadian tech workers would repatriate and foreign workers would immigrate to Canada if they could lower taxes across the board and make life easier for tech companies and workers I'm not sure that Canadian taxes compare that unfavourably to combined California plus federal taxation. A deeper, more structural limitation appears to be the venture capital environment, namely that Canada doesn't have a good one. Canada's investable capital is dominated by pension funds, insurance companies (i.e. pension funds), and banks (i.e. pensioners). All are risk averse (https://thelogic.co/news/bdc-canadian-venture-capital-report-2024/ https://thelogic.co/news/bdc-canadian-venture-capital-report...), which makes it hard for Canadian startups to begin scaling. Without native "unicorns" (https://financialpost.com/technology/why-canada-best-startups-fail-become-unicorns https://financialpost.com/technology/why-canada-best-startup...), there's allegedly a failure-to-launch for the entire sector – tech billionaires being some of the most reliable early-stage investors with the greatest risk tolerance. The porous border works both for and against the sector. On one hand that makes it relatively easy (but not automatic) for a Canadian tech company to enter the US market, but on the other hand it's also relatively easy for Canadian tech workers (founders included) to simply relocate (note the article here). If startups leave for the US's vast fields of venture capital, they're less likely to come back. Note that around the turn of the year Y-Combinator halted investments in Canadian firms (https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/adding-canada-back https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/adding-canada-back) because they so frequently relocated to the US. This venture capital cycle seems to be a deeply-entrenched and very hard problem. If democratically feasible tax incentives could reliably create "the Silicon Valley of X," then we probably would have many more Silicon Valleys both in the US and elsewhere.
- notatoad 5mo ago>ROGER: Okay, how does this compare to the ’90s when we saw a brain drain then? Is it larger? Different sectors? >FRANCIS: No, I think, Roger, you pointed to it correctly. This is not an issue that is brand new for Canada. oh, okay then. so, the same thing is happening as has always happened. the only interesting thing about this article is trying to determine if it's motivated by the opposition party trying to score some points (like it usually is) or by the US trying to share a positive in response to all the "canadian tourism numbers are down" stories going around lately.
- petcat 5mo agoIt looks like the major difference recently is that TN visa issuance has surged in recent years, up to over 1.2 million in 2023. The previous all time high was back in 2016 (~800,000). More highly educated Canadian and Mexican professionals are relocating to the US than ever before, which is obviously concerning for Canada.
- Grum9 5mo ago[dead]
- jt2190 5mo agoLiterally the next sentences: > It’s one that we’ve been facing for quite some time. The reason we wrote this report, however, is to highlight the fact that we’re sort of in this moment in time right now, with our relationship with the U.S. deteriorating and us trying to diversify our trading partners, to highlight the fact that we are still not really all that competitive. Our productivity growth is quite low and has been for a few years now. So, banging this drum about wanting to raise this issue around competitiveness, that was the goal of this. With the U.S. moving from a cooperative trade partner to a trade competitor, Canada needs to up its game.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- metalman 5mo ago
- bfkwlfkjf 5mo agoELI5 - Canadians can just cross the border and get a job in the USA? No need for work visa? Is that by virtue of being Canadian citizens? What are the legals?
- selimthegrim 5mo agoTN visa
- 486sx33 5mo ago[dead]
- Topgamer7 5mo agoThe US makes it relatively easy to get a work visa if you have a science degree from a university.
- bfkwlfkjf 5mo agoScience degree from a US university you mean? I'm not trolling, genuine question.
- rjrjrjrj 5mo agoCanadian university degree is fine. Look up TN 1 visa if you want more details.
- QGQBGdeZREunxLe 5mo agoAny university degree is fine but if it's not from a NAFTA country it needs a Foreign Equivalency Certification.
- bfkwlfkjf 5mo agoBut from non-nafta it's not TN, right? What's the approach there? Skilled something?
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- pupppet 5mo ago[dead]
- s0rce 5mo agoNot really new, been going on for decades. With recent political changes I would have assumed it might have been getting better actually. I'm guilty, Canadian living in the SF Bay area.
- __s 5mo agoBack in 2019 Microsoft sent job offer, 145k usd/yr base moving to SF. Couldn't get visa (no degree). New offer: 95k cad/yr in Vancouver I've done well since then, but being in Canada I'm always "out of band". Implicit implication that I should move south where lower level positions already match Canadian bands
- TMWNN 5mo agoWhat you and hiddenthrowaway wrote is consistent with my understanding, that Canadian FAANG offices are staffed mostly with those who cannot (and often will never get) a US visa, plus the odd local who doesn't want to move to the US for personal or family reasons.
- MarxOk 5mo agoIt's the pay, it's always the pay. If our salaries were closer to the U.S. this wouldn't be happening.
- enraged_camel 5mo agoIt’s more than that, right? Canadian real estate is bonkers for example, and would still be even if we magically elevated Canadian salaries to US levels.
- xyzzy_plugh 5mo agoThe SF Bay Area has consistently been more bonkers, relatively and absolutely, so I don't think is a substantial contributing factor.
- lacewing 5mo agoUS real estate in many desirable metro areas is bonkers too. And yet, Canadian engineers want to move to the SF Bay Area...
- SecretDreams 5mo agoI think ratios are worse in Canada pay/housing. SF/Bay are also nice because you can make a lot, rent, and then move away to low cost housing. The opposite doesn't work - you can't make a bunch of money in Canada and go elsewhere to cheaper housing, at least not easily. West coast wages are probably objectively bloated, but that bloat is the primary reason global talent flows there with the plan to not necessarily stay there forever.
- jojobas 5mo agoShould be completely dwarfed by everyone end their dog fleeing Trump's fascist wasteland to Canada right?
- laughing_man 5mo agoToday is full of evergreen headlines.
- xyzzy_plugh 5mo agoThe not-so-top secret way to get rich as a Canadian new grad in tech is to get a job at a unicorn by way of TN status, hop around for ~5-10 years, possibly getting an H-1B, but never pursuing a greencard. Accumulate wealth by any means necessary. If you find yourself with nice RSUs or options, hang on to them or exercise them, respectively. When you're fed up move back to Canada and enjoy no exit tax and enjoy the step-up cost basis on all your assets. Sell all your RSUs and pay nearly zero capital gains. Use your imagination here. (If you are unlucky and only have losses, well, you'll never really be able to use them tax-wise.)
- RickJWagner 5mo agoI swear I read an article not long ago declaring the US was losing top talent to other locales. I suppose data could be used to justify whatever position and thus earn daily bread for the headline. Tomorrow there’ll need to be another story.
- mafalda 5mo agoAs an immigrant to Canada, I've spent considerable time comparing the numbers and while it is fact that numbers will simply be bigger in the US, the direct number comparison suggests that the "brain drain" issue is a mix of tax burden from Canada and better US opportunity. The first thing to consider here is that Canadians are in an unique position to move to the US. They are more likely to have family, friends, travel for leisure and business, easier work visas (TN), Canadian universities are recognized in the US, and so on. Second thing is that for the people that have the means, moving early in life to the US might be the factor between affording the life you want with ease vs having to compromise. Many of my friends in tech that moved are saving 1.5x to 2.5x compared to the ones that stayed. So I don't see a way for Canada to not be a source of talent to the US market. But I also don't believe that is the most interesting question. The question that I believe matters most here from a society/economy perspective is: is Canada's economy providing the right incentives for innovation and entrepreneurship? From that perspective the first thing that needs to be addressed is that we can't compare only taxes rates and income. Canada has a very different tax system, where being able to maximize your TFSA and RRSP will probably set you up pretty well for retirement. Cost of housing is high, but cost of borrowing can be much lower than similar US mortgages. Canadian taxes also include healthcare that is more efficient (cost wise) than the American model. So while you can get rich faster in the US, the reality is that you will need a lot less income to achieve similar quality of life depending on the cities you are comparing. My personal notes for Vancouver, BC vs Seattle, WA concluded that for a family of 2. The gross income required to live a fair life that includes: - owning a decent property - be able to retire with no need to reduce cost of living - taking vacations and going out often - hedging health costs You are looking for around 200k CAD vs 250k USD of steady yearly income. Those incomes are very achievable in both places for people that are considered top talent and companies can provide such income locally. On the tax side, Canada could improve, but I don't believe that lowering taxes will bring much value. Where Canada seems to struggle is on the regulation side. Canada is aligned with the US, which means that when addressing the Canadian market, your business is most likely also able to easily address the US market. This means that you will probably be better of setting up your center of operations in the US and not in Canada. At the same time, big Canadian focused corporations operate mostly in an Oligopoly way. Smaller companies need to fight both regulatory requirements that didn't exist before and have a harder time getting the money they need to scale operations. Adopting European (and Asian) standards could severely improve competition as companies could more easily extend operations into Canada without having to also support the US market, while in the long term Canadian companies would be able to choose the regulations that give their products the access to the most appropriate markets.
- johnnienaked 5mo agoThe cope about this "not being new" is pretty typical denial I'm glad to have left up there.
- hiddenthrowaway 5mo agoObviously, a throwaway. Microsoft calls their Vancouver office "The Refugee Center"
- smarm52 5mo agoThey can't be that smart if they're heading into the US now. Concerns about ICE hunting down "furiners" should be enough to give them pause; Especially those that are part of a visible minority.
- jackling 5mo agoI'm a visible minority who went from the GTA to Boston, everything is fine. People with this attitude are mostly fear mongering. No one I know has been harassed by ICE. Not saying they aren't doing terrible stuff, but the average tech worker is just fine in the US.
- hyperman1 5mo agoI know a few smart people from Europe who went to the USA. Several of the smartest went to Canada in Trump 1. More have followed now. They still prefer Canada above returning to the EU, even if it is legally harder.