4 ms·

> Compared to the other industrial uses you'd get, data centers are almost certainly preferable. Why? The ratio of jobs and taxes to local resources tied up ha

by CPLX 4mo ago

> Compared to the other industrial uses you'd get, data centers are almost certainly preferable. Why? The ratio of jobs and taxes to local resources tied up has to be one of the worst possible trade-offs of any industrial use that you can envision. That is precisely why data centers are proving to be profoundly unpopular. Compare and contrast to something like a Boeing assembly plant with thousands of high-paid skilled jobs, and knock-on effects with local service providers and OEM vendors.

gottorf 4mo ago
> The ratio of jobs and taxes to local resources tied up has to be one of the worst possible trade-offs of any industrial use that you can envision Why? There aren't much "local resources tied up" since it's land that isn't that valuable for the most part. DCs, once built, don't emit fumes or loud noises, or make traffic worse like other industrial land use might. They just sit there quietly and generate tax revenue for the locality. Sure, there aren't many ongoing jobs at an operating DC. But I can't see why it's one of the worst possible industrial uses, from the point of view of the residents around one. > data centers are proving to be profoundly unpopular From what I can tell, this is just from a combination of AI being unpopular plus opportunistic fearmongering on the part of politicians.
- tptacek 4mo ago
  The bigger thing here is just the idea that the alternatives are "Boeing assembly plant" or "data center". Like: if you have the option of getting the Boeing plant, get the Boeing plant! Racine County does not have that option. Meanwhile, the happy sounding businesses there --- like the duck farm --- are actually major polluters, and more problematic for the region than a data center. The people opposing data centers oppose them everywhere, including in the middle of the desert in Utah, which really gives away the game.
  - dehrmann 4mo ago
    > he bigger thing here is just the idea that the alternatives are "Boeing assembly plant" or "data center". This is a false dichotomy, though. That region has enough land that you could do both. There just isn't much demand for manufacturing in the Upper Midwest right now.
- CPLX 4mo ago
  What you're saying is just factually incorrect. Data centers absolutely are loud and they're disruptive. They're not good for the environment. They consume large quantities of water, typically, and huge, absolutely staggering amounts of energy, which typically has the effect of raising rates for everybody else by driving up demand and causing capital infrastructure needs that are financed by everybody, not just the data center. There is absolutely widespread dislike for data center construction in basically every region spanning almost every political axis in the United States right now. There's polling on it. It's abysmal. The assumption that all these people are stupid sheep probably won't be a productive way to approach this public policy question.
  - tptacek 4mo ago
    They do not in fact consume large quantities of water, and "they consume lots of water" is a pretty good shibboleth for "this isn't going to be a productive discussion". Golf courses in the US consume more than 8x the water of all data centers combined. Obviously, that's my response to your polling claims as well: people getting polled thing data centers are consuming all the water.
    - juliusdavies 4mo ago
      It would make more sense to complain about plants consuming sunlight than it does to complain about data centers consuming water.
    - CPLX 4mo ago
      You guys really don't get it, do you? You've got these people going on TV and doing interviews saying that this new technology will be capable of replacing huge amounts of jobs. The people that say that most jobs will be eliminated by AI are making direct threats of violence against the families of millions of people. Telling someone that they will no longer have any way of feeding their children is telling them that you're going to kill their family. I'm not saying this to convince you that that's true. You could make some counter-arguments to that, and I'm sure people will come along and do that. The point is to understand it that that's how it's perceived by the people hearing it. And then to add insult to injury, they want to come do it in your town. They want to pitch a giant "development" project. But remember nobody ever wants “development” except for the fact that it might bring jobs and economic growth, to them, not you living somewhere else. Meanwhile, you've already told them that the reason we need so many more data centers all of a sudden is specifically so that we can eliminate whatever jobs are left that we didn't get a chance to eliminate over the last several decades when we exported most of the jobs we could to different countries. By the way we're the same assholes who said "trust us" last time, and pitched the idea that it would lead to a prosperous future for everyone. Instead you made money off sending the jobs to china, capturing all excess value with software, and addicting our children to opioids. And your next exciting offer for us is a giant windowless building that will take up open land, nature, and yes, water and electricity, and employ almost nobody. People don't feel like they control a whole lot, but they do have some ability to complain about this thing happening where they live. The actions of people opposing these data centers are completely rational. If I'm trying to make one point, that's it. The actually interesting part of this back and forth on HN is that Silicon Valley (aka "tech") culture has grown so fundamentally rotten at its core that not only do people not have values that place humans first, they can't even recognize when other people do.

by CPLX 4mo ago

gottorf 4mo ago

> The ratio of jobs and taxes to local resources tied up has to be one of the worst possible trade-offs of any industrial use that you can envision Why? There aren't much "local resources tied up" since it's land that isn't that valuable for the most part. DCs, once built, don't emit fumes or loud noises, or make traffic worse like other industrial land use might. They just sit there quietly and generate tax revenue for the locality. Sure, there aren't many ongoing jobs at an operating DC. But I can't see why it's one of the worst possible industrial uses, from the point of view of the residents around one. > data centers are proving to be profoundly unpopular From what I can tell, this is just from a combination of AI being unpopular plus opportunistic fearmongering on the part of politicians.

tptacek 4mo ago
The bigger thing here is just the idea that the alternatives are "Boeing assembly plant" or "data center". Like: if you have the option of getting the Boeing plant, get the Boeing plant! Racine County does not have that option. Meanwhile, the happy sounding businesses there --- like the duck farm --- are actually major polluters, and more problematic for the region than a data center. The people opposing data centers oppose them everywhere, including in the middle of the desert in Utah, which really gives away the game.
- dehrmann 4mo ago
  > he bigger thing here is just the idea that the alternatives are "Boeing assembly plant" or "data center". This is a false dichotomy, though. That region has enough land that you could do both. There just isn't much demand for manufacturing in the Upper Midwest right now.
CPLX 4mo ago
What you're saying is just factually incorrect. Data centers absolutely are loud and they're disruptive. They're not good for the environment. They consume large quantities of water, typically, and huge, absolutely staggering amounts of energy, which typically has the effect of raising rates for everybody else by driving up demand and causing capital infrastructure needs that are financed by everybody, not just the data center. There is absolutely widespread dislike for data center construction in basically every region spanning almost every political axis in the United States right now. There's polling on it. It's abysmal. The assumption that all these people are stupid sheep probably won't be a productive way to approach this public policy question.
- tptacek 4mo ago
  They do not in fact consume large quantities of water, and "they consume lots of water" is a pretty good shibboleth for "this isn't going to be a productive discussion". Golf courses in the US consume more than 8x the water of all data centers combined. Obviously, that's my response to your polling claims as well: people getting polled thing data centers are consuming all the water.
  - juliusdavies 4mo ago
    It would make more sense to complain about plants consuming sunlight than it does to complain about data centers consuming water.
  - CPLX 4mo ago
    You guys really don't get it, do you? You've got these people going on TV and doing interviews saying that this new technology will be capable of replacing huge amounts of jobs. The people that say that most jobs will be eliminated by AI are making direct threats of violence against the families of millions of people. Telling someone that they will no longer have any way of feeding their children is telling them that you're going to kill their family. I'm not saying this to convince you that that's true. You could make some counter-arguments to that, and I'm sure people will come along and do that. The point is to understand it that that's how it's perceived by the people hearing it. And then to add insult to injury, they want to come do it in your town. They want to pitch a giant "development" project. But remember nobody ever wants “development” except for the fact that it might bring jobs and economic growth, to them, not you living somewhere else. Meanwhile, you've already told them that the reason we need so many more data centers all of a sudden is specifically so that we can eliminate whatever jobs are left that we didn't get a chance to eliminate over the last several decades when we exported most of the jobs we could to different countries. By the way we're the same assholes who said "trust us" last time, and pitched the idea that it would lead to a prosperous future for everyone. Instead you made money off sending the jobs to china, capturing all excess value with software, and addicting our children to opioids. And your next exciting offer for us is a giant windowless building that will take up open land, nature, and yes, water and electricity, and employ almost nobody. People don't feel like they control a whole lot, but they do have some ability to complain about this thing happening where they live. The actions of people opposing these data centers are completely rational. If I'm trying to make one point, that's it. The actually interesting part of this back and forth on HN is that Silicon Valley (aka "tech") culture has grown so fundamentally rotten at its core that not only do people not have values that place humans first, they can't even recognize when other people do.