3 ms·

"It is, therefore, not enough to state simply that men and women have equal dignity and rights; it is necessary that this be reflected in concrete decisions, su

by lukan 5mo ago

"It is, therefore, not enough to state simply that men and women have equal dignity and rights; it is necessary that this be reflected in concrete decisions, such as in laws, access to employment, education, social and political responsibilities, and the way society listens to and values women’s contributions. As long as this gap persists, we cannot say that society truly and fully recognizes that women have the same dignity as men." So ... women should have the same dignity as men and should get the same access to "employment, education, social and political responsibilities". But of course they cannot be trusted with spiritual matters, so they cannot become priests. In other words, to me this is still the same old hypocrisy that made me leave that institution and also today make me deeply distrust any words of wisdom coming from there.

goosejuice 5mo ago
In this case spiritual and political are one in the same.
- crooked-v 5mo ago
  Only if this is also the Pope declaring that women can be priests.
  - goosejuice 5mo ago
    I'm simply pointing out that it's a ecclesiastical monarchy. Political office and religious authority are intertwined. One woman has reached a cabinet level position as of 2025, something allowed for the first time in 2022. Even she can't perform the full duties of her job because they require a title only a man can be granted.
bromuro 5mo ago
Your argument is a bit stretched. Women had and have a principal role in catholicism, the fact that cannot be priest is not that important or seen as discrimination.
- darkwater 5mo ago
  > the fact that cannot be priest is not that important or seen as discrimination. Says who, exactly?
  - luismedel 5mo ago
    Catholics.
- lukan 5mo ago
  Oh my, I assume you are male? Just declaring the discrimination to be "not that important" is quite typical then (as it does not affect you) and well, my catholic aunt would disagree, but she is not important. May I ask, what the principal role of women is in catholocism, besides being good mothers?
  - luismedel 5mo ago
    Politics, football (soccer) and religion are always very sensitive topics. Maybe the OP's "not that important" was an unfortunate way to put it. I think the answers you ask for are in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[0] [0] https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1994/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters...
  - bigstrat2003 5mo ago
    Trying to argue against someone's point by bringing their identity into it is not a good argument. It is a cheap rhetorical trick that only obscures the truth, not helps to bring it out.
    - lukan 5mo ago
      And .. what is this comment if not a rhetorical trick to obscure the truth, that the catholic church is in fact deeply entrenched in gender discrimination?
- goosejuice 5mo ago
danaris 5mo ago
You speak as if the Pope can just change that unilaterally, with no cost. Now, I don't know if Pope Leo actually believes in the full equality of men and women or if he's really being a hypocrite here. It's fully possible that you're absolutely right to scoff at him for it. But the thing is, the limitation of priesthood to men in the Roman Catholic Church is such a deeply ingrained thing, it would be very, very hard for a single Pope to change it, especially early on in his papacy. If one wanted to, one of the first things he'd have to do would be... ...why, it would be to release an encyclical talking about the equality of men and women. Whether that was its core message or not.
- lukan 5mo ago
  Yes, I am aware of that. And I don't know much about the current pope, but he seems progressive and can only go step by step, like Franziskus. What I do know is, that a main motivation to introduce the celibate, was that priests don't inherit church land to their offspring anymore. In other words, I applaud reforming what is possible, but I would not want that job as hypocrasy seems required. Because on the other hand all this should be gods own unique church and I could not preach that, while knowing about all the well, human compromises so to say.
elmomle 5mo ago
Many Catholic believers are huge stickers for tradition. The previous Pope didn't go nearly so far as to allow female clergy, and he was not viewed with respect by many conservative Catholics. If the Pope declared that the church must allow female clergy, and if that didn't cause a literal schism, he would nevertheless lose the respect of most Catholics who didn't already agree with him. If the Pope decides that it doesn't actually accomplish much good to force the issue when Catholics as a whole aren't ready for it, he could either try to advance women's rights without tipping the boat over, or he could just not bother. This Pope is choosing to try to be a voice for good, and seems to do so from a deep desire for moral justice in an imperfect world. I'm grateful for that.
hammock 5mo ago
The textbook answer, not that I am agreeing with it, is that no women priests is not a choice that the Catholic Church makes, but rather a reflection of received wisdom and ground truth. The same way perhaps a man is understood to be unable to get pregnant, a woman is understood to be unable to perform the sacraments. Or as John Paul II stated in 1994, “the church has no authority whatsoever to ordain women” even if it wanted to
comfysocks 5mo ago
That reads a bit like: an equal role in external politics, but not in internal church politics. It’s hard to have a role in politics if you don’t have a voice.
bigstrat2003 5mo ago
> So ... women should have the same dignity as men and should get the same access to "employment, education, social and political responsibilities". But of course they cannot be trusted with spiritual matters... Nobody has said that. You are attacking a strawman. The actual teaching of the Catholic Church is that because Jesus was a man, and because priests act in the priestly role Jesus held, that priests must be men. Which you may still disagree with. Fair enough. But in that case argue against the actual teaching, not a strawman.
- lukan 5mo ago
  It is not a strawman that the catholic church only allows men as priests. But can you find me some teachings of Jesus where he said, women cannot be priests? I am not aware of any. Also not that a priest is a replacement of Jesus. But I am aware that we don't even have direct sources from jesus, but 3. hand at best. So there are lots of christians who think women as priests are fine. So it is a choice the catholic church made centuries ago and it is a choice to not change. Their choice. And mine to stay away from them, but still comment on their wisdom.

by lukan 5mo ago

goosejuice 5mo ago

In this case spiritual and political are one in the same.

crooked-v 5mo ago
Only if this is also the Pope declaring that women can be priests.
- goosejuice 5mo ago
  I'm simply pointing out that it's a ecclesiastical monarchy. Political office and religious authority are intertwined. One woman has reached a cabinet level position as of 2025, something allowed for the first time in 2022. Even she can't perform the full duties of her job because they require a title only a man can be granted.

bromuro 5mo ago

Your argument is a bit stretched. Women had and have a principal role in catholicism, the fact that cannot be priest is not that important or seen as discrimination.

darkwater 5mo ago
> the fact that cannot be priest is not that important or seen as discrimination. Says who, exactly?
- luismedel 5mo ago
  Catholics.
lukan 5mo ago
Oh my, I assume you are male? Just declaring the discrimination to be "not that important" is quite typical then (as it does not affect you) and well, my catholic aunt would disagree, but she is not important. May I ask, what the principal role of women is in catholocism, besides being good mothers?
- luismedel 5mo ago
  Politics, football (soccer) and religion are always very sensitive topics. Maybe the OP's "not that important" was an unfortunate way to put it. I think the answers you ask for are in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[0] [0] https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1994/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters...
- bigstrat2003 5mo ago
  Trying to argue against someone's point by bringing their identity into it is not a good argument. It is a cheap rhetorical trick that only obscures the truth, not helps to bring it out.
  - lukan 5mo ago
    And .. what is this comment if not a rhetorical trick to obscure the truth, that the catholic church is in fact deeply entrenched in gender discrimination?
goosejuice 5mo ago

danaris 5mo ago

You speak as if the Pope can just change that unilaterally, with no cost. Now, I don't know if Pope Leo actually believes in the full equality of men and women or if he's really being a hypocrite here. It's fully possible that you're absolutely right to scoff at him for it. But the thing is, the limitation of priesthood to men in the Roman Catholic Church is such a deeply ingrained thing, it would be very, very hard for a single Pope to change it, especially early on in his papacy. If one wanted to, one of the first things he'd have to do would be... ...why, it would be to release an encyclical talking about the equality of men and women. Whether that was its core message or not.

lukan 5mo ago
Yes, I am aware of that. And I don't know much about the current pope, but he seems progressive and can only go step by step, like Franziskus. What I do know is, that a main motivation to introduce the celibate, was that priests don't inherit church land to their offspring anymore. In other words, I applaud reforming what is possible, but I would not want that job as hypocrasy seems required. Because on the other hand all this should be gods own unique church and I could not preach that, while knowing about all the well, human compromises so to say.

elmomle 5mo ago

Many Catholic believers are huge stickers for tradition. The previous Pope didn't go nearly so far as to allow female clergy, and he was not viewed with respect by many conservative Catholics. If the Pope declared that the church must allow female clergy, and if that didn't cause a literal schism, he would nevertheless lose the respect of most Catholics who didn't already agree with him. If the Pope decides that it doesn't actually accomplish much good to force the issue when Catholics as a whole aren't ready for it, he could either try to advance women's rights without tipping the boat over, or he could just not bother. This Pope is choosing to try to be a voice for good, and seems to do so from a deep desire for moral justice in an imperfect world. I'm grateful for that.

hammock 5mo ago

The textbook answer, not that I am agreeing with it, is that no women priests is not a choice that the Catholic Church makes, but rather a reflection of received wisdom and ground truth. The same way perhaps a man is understood to be unable to get pregnant, a woman is understood to be unable to perform the sacraments. Or as John Paul II stated in 1994, “the church has no authority whatsoever to ordain women” even if it wanted to

comfysocks 5mo ago

That reads a bit like: an equal role in external politics, but not in internal church politics. It’s hard to have a role in politics if you don’t have a voice.

bigstrat2003 5mo ago

> So ... women should have the same dignity as men and should get the same access to "employment, education, social and political responsibilities". But of course they cannot be trusted with spiritual matters... Nobody has said that. You are attacking a strawman. The actual teaching of the Catholic Church is that because Jesus was a man, and because priests act in the priestly role Jesus held, that priests must be men. Which you may still disagree with. Fair enough. But in that case argue against the actual teaching, not a strawman.

lukan 5mo ago
It is not a strawman that the catholic church only allows men as priests. But can you find me some teachings of Jesus where he said, women cannot be priests? I am not aware of any. Also not that a priest is a replacement of Jesus. But I am aware that we don't even have direct sources from jesus, but 3. hand at best. So there are lots of christians who think women as priests are fine. So it is a choice the catholic church made centuries ago and it is a choice to not change. Their choice. And mine to stay away from them, but still comment on their wisdom.