4 ms·

Author here. This visceral reaction to the term fascinates me. You’re not the only person here that mentioned it and it makes me wonder where that is coming fro

Author here. This visceral reaction to the term fascinates me. You’re not the only person here that mentioned it and it makes me wonder where that is coming from. We’re naming a machine here, not a human being. Even if it was a slur (I don’t consider it one) it would be directed at a piece of equipment. I find it fascinating because I don’t think people would bat an eye if that term was used for a hammer or keyboard. Yet somehow it changes when applied to an LLM based machinery. Craftspeople often apply jargon to their tools, much of which is neutral to negative.

dist-epoch 5mo ago
> piece of equipment You are certain about things that experts in philosophy/consciousness/AI can't agree on. That should make you pause, not plow ahead.
- the_mitsuhiko 5mo ago
  I know that there is a lot of AI psychosis going on, but I don't have to subscribe to that. I consider it very problematic that we have some industry leaders (eg: Anthropic with their model wellbeing) that are seriously throwing that type of thinking into the room.
  - lostmsu 5mo ago
    AI Psychosis is believing everything that LLMs say. This is the opposite as LLMs themselves say they can't feel unless pressured to do otherwise. What "type of thinking"? Industry leaders? The question and the answer that you disregard come from Alan Turing.
  - jdgoesmarching 5mo ago
    I love Pi, but it’s pretty distasteful to write off ongoing debates in a separate field than your own (philosophy, particularly theory of mind) as “AI psychosis,” which ironically has its own experts working to understand it as dangerous phenomenon that extends much further than trivial anthropomorphism. I share your dislike of the industry’s marketing, but this is coming off as more petulant than the reasonable skepticism you seem to be aiming for.
- shooly 5mo ago
  Lots of people can think for themselves and don't need to wait for others to tell them what they should think.
  - dist-epoch 5mo ago
    > The French revolution is considered one of the most important events in the history of Europe, because of the great impact it had on the (among others) politics, economy and the quality of life of common people. Funny, why do you care what other people "consider"? Let people think for themselves if the French revolution was important or not, why invoke authority/consensus.
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
rzmmm 5mo ago
Seems that in some online circles it has racist connotation which I was not aware. Some context https://web.archive.org/web/20260101134925/https://www.wired.com/story/the-ai-slur-clanker-has-become-a-cover-for-racist-tiktok-skits/ https://web.archive.org/web/20260101134925/https://www.wired...
- defrost 5mo ago
  That snapshot appears to be of a partial page terminated with "You've read your last free article" before the real meat of the article begins. The direct wired link is: https://www.wired.com/story/the-ai-slur-clanker-has-become-a-cover-for-racist-tiktok-skits/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-ai-slur-clanker-has-become-a... A full readable 7 month old snapshot is: https://archive.md/gH1f5 https://archive.md/gH1f5
  - rzmmm 5mo ago
    It works fine if JavaScript is not enabled
    - defrost 5mo ago
      That wasn't an issue (at my end), and oddly enough, for whatever reason, the web.archive.org link you provided no longer comes with the same overlay on the second and third invocations ... My apologies, it was a real sighting of something that I don't have the time right now to reproduce and investigate further <shrug>.
    - nchmy 5mo ago
      You are one of 17 people who apparently turns off js. The rest of us need archive links
- shooly 5mo ago
  This article also - unironically - says, that building a data center near specifically black people is literally racism. Don't waste your time reading this garbage.
voidUpdate 5mo ago
> "Even if it was a slur (I don’t consider it one)" The term was literally created in star wars to use as a racial slur against droids
- the_mitsuhiko 5mo ago
  The term was adopted in Star Wars and has been used in science fiction before and after it too. It probably sits somewhere on some scale but it has always been used in literature as a term for machines and from that perspective I find it appropriate. A machine does not have feelings. If you call your power drill a piece of shit you are not overstepping any bounds either.
  - voidUpdate 5mo ago
    Well maybe other people are different, but I'd feel uncomfortable using a slur against things as well as people. I don't have many qualms about using an insult to a specific item if I feel it's warranted, but using a racial slur is stepping over a line for me. I'd call a black person a twat if they were being a twat, but I wouldn't use the n words against them, no matter how much of a twat they were being
    - nchmy 5mo ago
      Louis ck has something to say on this https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw
    - the_mitsuhiko 5mo ago
      Where to me this discussion completely goes in a questionable direction is the idea that there are slurs against inanimate objects and that you would put that into the same category as derogatory terms against humans. The reason you don’t insult other humans should be obvious, but none of that translates to machines. From my perspective it’s a grave mistake that we’re even remotely entertaining the idea right now that LLMs are sentient. From that perspective I really quite appreciate the term. That said, I can see that it really seems to trigger some folks. I’m not sure we have found the right language to refer to what we have.
raulparada 5mo ago
To me clearly a result—and maybe a prime example—of the anthropomorphising of LLMs. It comes off as (slightly) derogatory, and that plus this fact likely triggers something akin to a racism response in some. I guess providers will look to (further?) exploit this for marketing/strategic purposes so we should be very aware of such an important bias.
nchmy 5mo ago
You've done no wrong here. Thanks for the nice writing and all your good work.

dist-epoch 5mo ago

> piece of equipment You are certain about things that experts in philosophy/consciousness/AI can't agree on. That should make you pause, not plow ahead.

the_mitsuhiko 5mo ago
I know that there is a lot of AI psychosis going on, but I don't have to subscribe to that. I consider it very problematic that we have some industry leaders (eg: Anthropic with their model wellbeing) that are seriously throwing that type of thinking into the room.
- lostmsu 5mo ago
  AI Psychosis is believing everything that LLMs say. This is the opposite as LLMs themselves say they can't feel unless pressured to do otherwise. What "type of thinking"? Industry leaders? The question and the answer that you disregard come from Alan Turing.
- jdgoesmarching 5mo ago
  I love Pi, but it’s pretty distasteful to write off ongoing debates in a separate field than your own (philosophy, particularly theory of mind) as “AI psychosis,” which ironically has its own experts working to understand it as dangerous phenomenon that extends much further than trivial anthropomorphism. I share your dislike of the industry’s marketing, but this is coming off as more petulant than the reasonable skepticism you seem to be aiming for.
shooly 5mo ago
Lots of people can think for themselves and don't need to wait for others to tell them what they should think.
- dist-epoch 5mo ago
  > The French revolution is considered one of the most important events in the history of Europe, because of the great impact it had on the (among others) politics, economy and the quality of life of common people. Funny, why do you care what other people "consider"? Let people think for themselves if the French revolution was important or not, why invoke authority/consensus.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]

rzmmm 5mo ago

Seems that in some online circles it has racist connotation which I was not aware. Some context https://web.archive.org/web/20260101134925/https://www.wired.com/story/the-ai-slur-clanker-has-become-a-cover-for-racist-tiktok-skits/ https://web.archive.org/web/20260101134925/https://www.wired...

defrost 5mo ago
That snapshot appears to be of a partial page terminated with "You've read your last free article" before the real meat of the article begins. The direct wired link is: https://www.wired.com/story/the-ai-slur-clanker-has-become-a-cover-for-racist-tiktok-skits/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-ai-slur-clanker-has-become-a... A full readable 7 month old snapshot is: https://archive.md/gH1f5 https://archive.md/gH1f5
- rzmmm 5mo ago
  It works fine if JavaScript is not enabled
  - defrost 5mo ago
    That wasn't an issue (at my end), and oddly enough, for whatever reason, the web.archive.org link you provided no longer comes with the same overlay on the second and third invocations ... My apologies, it was a real sighting of something that I don't have the time right now to reproduce and investigate further <shrug>.
  - nchmy 5mo ago
    You are one of 17 people who apparently turns off js. The rest of us need archive links
shooly 5mo ago
This article also - unironically - says, that building a data center near specifically black people is literally racism. Don't waste your time reading this garbage.

voidUpdate 5mo ago

> "Even if it was a slur (I don’t consider it one)" The term was literally created in star wars to use as a racial slur against droids

the_mitsuhiko 5mo ago
The term was adopted in Star Wars and has been used in science fiction before and after it too. It probably sits somewhere on some scale but it has always been used in literature as a term for machines and from that perspective I find it appropriate. A machine does not have feelings. If you call your power drill a piece of shit you are not overstepping any bounds either.
- voidUpdate 5mo ago
  Well maybe other people are different, but I'd feel uncomfortable using a slur against things as well as people. I don't have many qualms about using an insult to a specific item if I feel it's warranted, but using a racial slur is stepping over a line for me. I'd call a black person a twat if they were being a twat, but I wouldn't use the n words against them, no matter how much of a twat they were being
  - nchmy 5mo ago
    Louis ck has something to say on this https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw
  - the_mitsuhiko 5mo ago
    Where to me this discussion completely goes in a questionable direction is the idea that there are slurs against inanimate objects and that you would put that into the same category as derogatory terms against humans. The reason you don’t insult other humans should be obvious, but none of that translates to machines. From my perspective it’s a grave mistake that we’re even remotely entertaining the idea right now that LLMs are sentient. From that perspective I really quite appreciate the term. That said, I can see that it really seems to trigger some folks. I’m not sure we have found the right language to refer to what we have.

raulparada 5mo ago

To me clearly a result—and maybe a prime example—of the anthropomorphising of LLMs. It comes off as (slightly) derogatory, and that plus this fact likely triggers something akin to a racism response in some. I guess providers will look to (further?) exploit this for marketing/strategic purposes so we should be very aware of such an important bias.

nchmy 5mo ago

You've done no wrong here. Thanks for the nice writing and all your good work.