4 ms·

Open weights aren’t open source. Source is the learning data and algorithms, and that is closed.

azinman2 5mo ago
And this is purely a way to undercut American models. If/once they’re ahead, it’ll stop being the case. Already qwen is doing that.
- HDBaseT 5mo ago
  I'm not entirely sold on this idea, open source models aren't really hurting Deepseek or Qwens bottom line. 99.99% of people cannot run these models on their own hardware, they are forced to rent it from someone. That someone is almost always the big China players themselves anyways.
  - azinman2 5mo ago
    First, there’s manyyyy model inference providers out there world wide. Just look at open router. Second, it’s well known in SV that most startups are using Chinese models because they have access to the weights… and that makes it far cheaper. Why else is Qwen now having cloud-only models?
    - HDBaseT 5mo ago
      There is plenty of other inference providers, but tell me, who is the cheapest? Model - Deepseek V4 Pro CHEAPEST PROVIDER: Provider: Deepseek Input Price - $0.435/M tokens Output Price - $0.87/M tokens Cache Read - $0.003625/M tokens SECOND CHEAPEST: Provider: deepinfra Input Price - $1.30/M tokens Output Price - $2.60/M tokens Cache Read - $0.10/M tokens Deepinfra is almost 3x more expensive and they are using a fp4 model, with Max 16.4K output (vs 364K) and have significantly lower throughput!
- shimman 5mo ago
  Calling them American owned models implies some sort of public ownership. These are models controlled by individuals whose benefits are absolutely not uniformly shared among the populace. I mean FFS a single hyper scale datacenter can provide free school lunches for a year. Something tells me the economic output of making sure children are fed is way higher than whether Zuckerberg can own another Hawaiian island by allowing people to be scammed by LLMs.
  - azinman2 5mo ago
    Not really, it’s a pretty common way to address companies that are part of a bigger geopolitical story. The press will happily refer to Chinese models, European when talking about Mistral, Canadian with Cohere… etc. I’m an American person yet I’m not public property.
    - shimman 5mo ago
      The implication is that American models winning would actually benefit Americans. That's not going to happen at all and talking about as if China "winning" would harm Americans is delusional cold war thinking at best.

And this is purely a way to undercut American models. If/once they’re ahead, it’ll stop being the case. Already qwen is doing that.

HDBaseT 5mo ago
I'm not entirely sold on this idea, open source models aren't really hurting Deepseek or Qwens bottom line. 99.99% of people cannot run these models on their own hardware, they are forced to rent it from someone. That someone is almost always the big China players themselves anyways.
- azinman2 5mo ago
  First, there’s manyyyy model inference providers out there world wide. Just look at open router. Second, it’s well known in SV that most startups are using Chinese models because they have access to the weights… and that makes it far cheaper. Why else is Qwen now having cloud-only models?
  - HDBaseT 5mo ago
    There is plenty of other inference providers, but tell me, who is the cheapest? Model - Deepseek V4 Pro CHEAPEST PROVIDER: Provider: Deepseek Input Price - $0.435/M tokens Output Price - $0.87/M tokens Cache Read - $0.003625/M tokens SECOND CHEAPEST: Provider: deepinfra Input Price - $1.30/M tokens Output Price - $2.60/M tokens Cache Read - $0.10/M tokens Deepinfra is almost 3x more expensive and they are using a fp4 model, with Max 16.4K output (vs 364K) and have significantly lower throughput!
shimman 5mo ago
Calling them American owned models implies some sort of public ownership. These are models controlled by individuals whose benefits are absolutely not uniformly shared among the populace. I mean FFS a single hyper scale datacenter can provide free school lunches for a year. Something tells me the economic output of making sure children are fed is way higher than whether Zuckerberg can own another Hawaiian island by allowing people to be scammed by LLMs.
- azinman2 5mo ago
  Not really, it’s a pretty common way to address companies that are part of a bigger geopolitical story. The press will happily refer to Chinese models, European when talking about Mistral, Canadian with Cohere… etc. I’m an American person yet I’m not public property.
  - shimman 5mo ago
    The implication is that American models winning would actually benefit Americans. That's not going to happen at all and talking about as if China "winning" would harm Americans is delusional cold war thinking at best.