5 ms·

It's impossible to end the illegal drug trade != No organization with the means is willing to do what it takes. The Mexican drug cartel supposedly has close to

by phaus 14y ago

It's impossible to end the illegal drug trade != No organization with the means is willing to do what it takes. The Mexican drug cartel supposedly has close to 150,000 "soldiers." I use the term soldier loosely because its really just a bunch of degenerate shitbags that have been given firearms. They are allegedly larger, more organized, and better funded than Al Qaeda has ever dreamed of being. Still, there are bullets enough in this world to solve such a problem. It would be long, ugly, and bloody for all parties involved, but if we were serious enough to actually go about it the right way, the entire planet would be far better having seen it to completion. When an ultraconservative thinks about the war on drugs, they are generally thinking of the elimination of mind-altering substances from the face of the earth. When I think of the war on drugs, I think first of finding ways to prevent children from becoming addicted to hard drugs before they are old enough to know what decision they are making, and secondly, the annihilation of the violent, terrorist organizations that currently control the industry. I understand that nothing will ever completely eliminate the recreational use of drugs, but by my definition the war on drugs is absolutely winnable. Unfortunately, just because something can be accomplished, doesn't mean that it's going to happen.

jacquesm 14y ago
All this would do is raise the price of drugs. Really, mass murder is not going to solve any of this and lack of resolve is definitely not the first cause of failing to find a solution.
anigbrowl 14y ago
Mexico has killed or captured a large number of drug kingpins in the last few years. The idea that they're not trying is absurdly uninformed. http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21564897-most-wanted-men-mexico-are-tumbling-will-crime-follow-suit http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21564897-most-wanted-...
- phaus 14y ago
  I wasn't trying to suggest that they weren't doing anything, just not enough. The cartel is a massive problem, and to get rid of them would involve a massive conflict. If the Mexican government was acting alone, it would pretty much demand a full-scale civil war. It would be a really shitty solution, no doubt about that, but it's a shitty situation no matter what. Basically, Mexico has to decide what it's willing to tolerate. If they think living under the ever increasing threat of being murdered in a turf war is more acceptable than the casualties they would endure trying to get rid of them, then that's a decision they should be entitled to make. But what saddens me, as it does in all nations where people face death on a daily basis, is that often, the actual people, the working class Mexicans in this case, don't get to make a real decision. They have an ineffective government on one hand, who is so used to having its members assassinated that it is mostly afraid to do anything, and on the other hand you have an insanely large band of murderers, torturers, and rapists that never should have been allowed to grow as large as it did. No matter what happens now, the general population of Mexico is going to get fucked pretty hard.
- miahi 14y ago
  Word on the (Mexican) street is that they just destroyed the competition, leaving one big cartel that could be linked to the president.
stch 14y ago
Why do you think that would stop drug trade? The market is driven by demand, not by supply, and the US demands a 150,000 strong army of drug traffickers to keep making the drugs for us.
ralonso 14y ago
See, this is a rather simplistic and ignorant comment. I do not mean to insult you - actually, I wish it was as simple as you're saying, just kill them and end with it. However, the problem is incredibly more complex than what you think it is. I live in Mexico, next to a city that a couple of years back was one of the worst in the country in terms of violence and drug distribution. (In fact, one of the big cartels started in that city.) I've interacted with people involved in those cartels and with their families. I've interacted with officers who're in it, too. The problem is deeply rooted, and it's a problem of, among other things, culture. The solution is not to "kill them all," but rather to educate. According to one article[1] (note: it's in spanish), Mexico invests less than 0.5% of its GDP into science and research. While Mexico has always had top competitors in international competitions for math, biology, robotics, science and engineering in general, and even chess, they're anomalies and products of extremely expensive private schools. Hell, even GNOME was made by two Mexican hackers. Schools in Mexico are beyond messed up. Lack of education, mixed with poverty, create criminals. In Mexico you rarely ever see racism, but instead there's classism. Unlike in the US, our government officials aren't old white guys, but people of all kinds of skin color with money. Mexican culture - and maybe I'm wrong in this comparison, but this is from what I understand - is similar to black culture, where you have to fight your way out of your impoverished group by primarily violent means. You don't earn the respect of your fellow poor friends by getting an A on a test, but by having designer jeans or by having the latest iPhone. And this is what gets most the "bunch of degenerate shitbags that have been given firearms" that you mention. These are literally teenagers (or even younger kids) that want to get out, probably even help our their family or community, and this is the only way they can do it. I may be going a bit off-topic, but killing them off won't do any good. In fact, starting an all-out war might make things worse. These kids don't fear death because they have nothing to lose. The higher ups also don't fear the government or the army. Another thing is that, if a war against organized crime were to start, it would create fear instead of peace. It would make the population, at least to my understanding, "uneasy" to say the least. What I would propose instead of killing people would be to educate and invest in shit other than fighting a meaningless war. [1] http://www.metronoticias.com.mx/nota.cgi?id=378883 http://www.metronoticias.com.mx/nota.cgi?id=378883 EDIT: Hmm, I noticed that I rambled a bit too much. There are several other things I wanted to mention. I am not in a position to offer a concrete solution as I'm not an expert in this topic. I've only seen this from afar and read almost daily on the newspapers about what's happening in the country. As I mentioned, the problem is far too big to be reduced into a couple of paragraphs. There are countless books, articles, essays, blog posts, etc, devoted to this specific topic and the solution offered varies (albeit slightly) from person to person. If anyone is interested in more information, let me know and I'll see what I can do.
sami36 14y ago
1-"degenerate shitbags, or maybe adults making a rational decision to work for an employer balancing risk & compensation in a chronically high unemployment society working for a company operating in a very high margin business. 2- "there are bullets enough in this world to solve such a problem." the same amount that solved the Afhanistan war, right ? 3- "I think first of finding ways to prevent children from becoming addicted to hard drugs" . what a patronizing & woefully uninformed profiling of the typical drug user. 4- "Unfortunately, just because something can be accomplished, doesn't mean that it's going to happen." 50 years, trillions of dollars & hundreds of thousands of dead beg to differ.
- phaus 14y ago
  I'd much rather the Mexican people deal with the Cartel than the United States. I wasn't suggesting a U.S. Invasion. Clearly it's difficult to solve someone else's problem. If the overwhelming majority of the Afghan people wanted the Taliban gone, and they had U.S. support, and we didn't fuck a bunch of stuff up, then of course we could have rid Afghanistan of the Taliban. If the Afghans legitimately trusted us, and supported us in large enough numbers, the Taliban would have had trouble finding even caves to hide in. Also I never made any claim that the "average" drug user was a child, just that it is a huge problem. The drug addicts that you know might have been adults when they first started using, but without exception, every one of the dozens of drug addicts I know started as a teenager. I can only speak from personal experience. Feigning ignorance to the fact that there is an epidemic of children in our country becoming addicted to drugs is the most "woefully misinformed" thing I've ever heard. Just because someone wants to be pro-legalization, doesn't mean they have to ignore reality. Edit: Apparently I have a habit of using the terms drug addict and drug user interchangeably. No offense was intended by this and I'll try to be more specific in the future. I understand that there is a distinct difference.
  - pyoung 14y ago
    It still sounds like you think of a 'typical drug user' as an addict. I think the point was that a good portion of drugs are consumed by fairly responsible, recreational users.
batgaijin 14y ago
"soldiers"? http://nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/narco-war-update http://nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/narco-war-update I'd rather fight marines than these guys; at least I'd get a double tap instead of something much worse...
gws 14y ago
Producing drugs is almost as easy as growing flowers. And people are clamoring to give you billions to get them. How can you imagine to stop that? Of course it is possible to kill the current 150 000 drug soldiers but it just becomes a giant game of whac-a-mole. One gigantic waste of money, time, and human lives.
dasil003 14y ago
I take it you've heard the Einstein quote on the definition of insanity?
FSEA 14y ago
This foolish comment is a showcase of the type of reasoning that grows small gangs into large organized pissed off syndicates.
bluedanieru 14y ago
What you describe is basically what we're doing now, to the extent we're willing to fund it. But instead of, you know, invading yet another country on the barest of pretenses, how about legalizing the drug trade, thereby depriving these cartels of their funding and, indeed, their very raison d'etre. The addiction problem you can solve within the health care and education systems, at far less cost (and much more effectively!) than waging a global, never-ending war on drugs. Then, if you're up for it, after the members of the now-defunct cartels are weakened, you can go after them with the bullets. Should be much easier. I mean, you say it right in your post: "long, ugly, and bloody for all parties involved". In fact what you describe is not a hypothetical at all, it is the existing War on Drugs. But then you just sort of dismiss that and continue on with your insane 'plan'.

by phaus 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

All this would do is raise the price of drugs. Really, mass murder is not going to solve any of this and lack of resolve is definitely not the first cause of failing to find a solution.

anigbrowl 14y ago

Mexico has killed or captured a large number of drug kingpins in the last few years. The idea that they're not trying is absurdly uninformed. http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21564897-most-wanted-men-mexico-are-tumbling-will-crime-follow-suit http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21564897-most-wanted-...

phaus 14y ago
I wasn't trying to suggest that they weren't doing anything, just not enough. The cartel is a massive problem, and to get rid of them would involve a massive conflict. If the Mexican government was acting alone, it would pretty much demand a full-scale civil war. It would be a really shitty solution, no doubt about that, but it's a shitty situation no matter what. Basically, Mexico has to decide what it's willing to tolerate. If they think living under the ever increasing threat of being murdered in a turf war is more acceptable than the casualties they would endure trying to get rid of them, then that's a decision they should be entitled to make. But what saddens me, as it does in all nations where people face death on a daily basis, is that often, the actual people, the working class Mexicans in this case, don't get to make a real decision. They have an ineffective government on one hand, who is so used to having its members assassinated that it is mostly afraid to do anything, and on the other hand you have an insanely large band of murderers, torturers, and rapists that never should have been allowed to grow as large as it did. No matter what happens now, the general population of Mexico is going to get fucked pretty hard.
miahi 14y ago
Word on the (Mexican) street is that they just destroyed the competition, leaving one big cartel that could be linked to the president.

stch 14y ago

Why do you think that would stop drug trade? The market is driven by demand, not by supply, and the US demands a 150,000 strong army of drug traffickers to keep making the drugs for us.

ralonso 14y ago

See, this is a rather simplistic and ignorant comment. I do not mean to insult you - actually, I wish it was as simple as you're saying, just kill them and end with it. However, the problem is incredibly more complex than what you think it is. I live in Mexico, next to a city that a couple of years back was one of the worst in the country in terms of violence and drug distribution. (In fact, one of the big cartels started in that city.) I've interacted with people involved in those cartels and with their families. I've interacted with officers who're in it, too. The problem is deeply rooted, and it's a problem of, among other things, culture. The solution is not to "kill them all," but rather to educate. According to one article[1] (note: it's in spanish), Mexico invests less than 0.5% of its GDP into science and research. While Mexico has always had top competitors in international competitions for math, biology, robotics, science and engineering in general, and even chess, they're anomalies and products of extremely expensive private schools. Hell, even GNOME was made by two Mexican hackers. Schools in Mexico are beyond messed up. Lack of education, mixed with poverty, create criminals. In Mexico you rarely ever see racism, but instead there's classism. Unlike in the US, our government officials aren't old white guys, but people of all kinds of skin color with money. Mexican culture - and maybe I'm wrong in this comparison, but this is from what I understand - is similar to black culture, where you have to fight your way out of your impoverished group by primarily violent means. You don't earn the respect of your fellow poor friends by getting an A on a test, but by having designer jeans or by having the latest iPhone. And this is what gets most the "bunch of degenerate shitbags that have been given firearms" that you mention. These are literally teenagers (or even younger kids) that want to get out, probably even help our their family or community, and this is the only way they can do it. I may be going a bit off-topic, but killing them off won't do any good. In fact, starting an all-out war might make things worse. These kids don't fear death because they have nothing to lose. The higher ups also don't fear the government or the army. Another thing is that, if a war against organized crime were to start, it would create fear instead of peace. It would make the population, at least to my understanding, "uneasy" to say the least. What I would propose instead of killing people would be to educate and invest in shit other than fighting a meaningless war. [1] http://www.metronoticias.com.mx/nota.cgi?id=378883 http://www.metronoticias.com.mx/nota.cgi?id=378883 EDIT: Hmm, I noticed that I rambled a bit too much. There are several other things I wanted to mention. I am not in a position to offer a concrete solution as I'm not an expert in this topic. I've only seen this from afar and read almost daily on the newspapers about what's happening in the country. As I mentioned, the problem is far too big to be reduced into a couple of paragraphs. There are countless books, articles, essays, blog posts, etc, devoted to this specific topic and the solution offered varies (albeit slightly) from person to person. If anyone is interested in more information, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

sami36 14y ago

1-"degenerate shitbags, or maybe adults making a rational decision to work for an employer balancing risk & compensation in a chronically high unemployment society working for a company operating in a very high margin business. 2- "there are bullets enough in this world to solve such a problem." the same amount that solved the Afhanistan war, right ? 3- "I think first of finding ways to prevent children from becoming addicted to hard drugs" . what a patronizing & woefully uninformed profiling of the typical drug user. 4- "Unfortunately, just because something can be accomplished, doesn't mean that it's going to happen." 50 years, trillions of dollars & hundreds of thousands of dead beg to differ.

phaus 14y ago
I'd much rather the Mexican people deal with the Cartel than the United States. I wasn't suggesting a U.S. Invasion. Clearly it's difficult to solve someone else's problem. If the overwhelming majority of the Afghan people wanted the Taliban gone, and they had U.S. support, and we didn't fuck a bunch of stuff up, then of course we could have rid Afghanistan of the Taliban. If the Afghans legitimately trusted us, and supported us in large enough numbers, the Taliban would have had trouble finding even caves to hide in. Also I never made any claim that the "average" drug user was a child, just that it is a huge problem. The drug addicts that you know might have been adults when they first started using, but without exception, every one of the dozens of drug addicts I know started as a teenager. I can only speak from personal experience. Feigning ignorance to the fact that there is an epidemic of children in our country becoming addicted to drugs is the most "woefully misinformed" thing I've ever heard. Just because someone wants to be pro-legalization, doesn't mean they have to ignore reality. Edit: Apparently I have a habit of using the terms drug addict and drug user interchangeably. No offense was intended by this and I'll try to be more specific in the future. I understand that there is a distinct difference.
- pyoung 14y ago
  It still sounds like you think of a 'typical drug user' as an addict. I think the point was that a good portion of drugs are consumed by fairly responsible, recreational users.

batgaijin 14y ago

"soldiers"? http://nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/narco-war-update http://nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/narco-war-update I'd rather fight marines than these guys; at least I'd get a double tap instead of something much worse...

gws 14y ago

Producing drugs is almost as easy as growing flowers. And people are clamoring to give you billions to get them. How can you imagine to stop that? Of course it is possible to kill the current 150 000 drug soldiers but it just becomes a giant game of whac-a-mole. One gigantic waste of money, time, and human lives.

dasil003 14y ago

I take it you've heard the Einstein quote on the definition of insanity?

FSEA 14y ago

This foolish comment is a showcase of the type of reasoning that grows small gangs into large organized pissed off syndicates.

bluedanieru 14y ago

What you describe is basically what we're doing now, to the extent we're willing to fund it. But instead of, you know, invading yet another country on the barest of pretenses, how about legalizing the drug trade, thereby depriving these cartels of their funding and, indeed, their very raison d'etre. The addiction problem you can solve within the health care and education systems, at far less cost (and much more effectively!) than waging a global, never-ending war on drugs. Then, if you're up for it, after the members of the now-defunct cartels are weakened, you can go after them with the bullets. Should be much easier. I mean, you say it right in your post: "long, ugly, and bloody for all parties involved". In fact what you describe is not a hypothetical at all, it is the existing War on Drugs. But then you just sort of dismiss that and continue on with your insane 'plan'.