3 ms·

This is a bit extreme. On the other end of the spectrum the existing system is heavily abused and hard to defend. For example many if not most PERM applications

by cmiles8 5mo ago

This is a bit extreme. On the other end of the spectrum the existing system is heavily abused and hard to defend. For example many if not most PERM applications in tech are a complete sham. Putting tiny job adverts burred deep in a newspaper hoping nobody applies to try and say there are no skilled workers in the US is just one example of current abuse of the system.

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
hellojesus 5mo ago
Isn't the correct response to the sham hirings to regulate that jobs are posted on a gov-run board for some period of time, ~30 days, before you can claim no qualified workers? That seems more reasonable than turning the spigot off entirely.
- cmiles8 5mo ago
  Perhaps. But given the volume of abuse that appears to be out there the tactic is more turn it all off then selectively back on where appropriate. Thats obviously extreme but given the abuse in the status quo it’s hard to defend what was going on and whine about this now. Some folks are obviously angry, but that anger is better directed at those that were abusing the system not those trying to fix it.
  - bsimpson 5mo ago
    It sounds like you're trying to defend going nuclear on green cards by arguing about a quirk of the H1B. The H1B system was stupid. That doesn't justify any of what the Trump admin has been doing.
    - dilyevsky 5mo ago
      PERM doesn’t just apply to h1b, having to prove no qualified hires was never required for h1b, it’s green card requirement which also applies to o1 and bunch of others. PERM is the thing that is stupid - they should automatically grant you GC if youve been legally employed for 5 years or something and dont have any criminal records
- sokoloff 5mo ago
  Only if that job board was an actually useful and common source for genuine hiring. If it becomes “these companies are checking a box, don’t bother applying” or “these companies are considering an H1-B application, flood them with resumes”, neither of those is helpful to qualified workers who actually want to find a job.
  - hellojesus 5mo ago
    Agreed. I don't really know how the current process works, but I would assume there is some level of oversight, meaning that errant (unqualified) applicants shouldn't detract from a qualified h1b under the current system any more than a centralized one. Tying a profile to a human (gov can do this) should at least help with determining whether an applicant is qualified (not that they are an actual fit for the team) which could provide some proxy for fitness of the current pool.
    - bluecheese452 5mo ago
      I mean the entire point is that there isn’t oversight, the system is being gamed. And as a practical matter oversight is virtually impossible. The immigration system is in no position to evaluate whether a candidate is qualified or not. The job board is inevitably going to devolve into one of those scenarios.
- ianhawes 5mo ago
  You've just described what already has to occur for PERM, you have to post on the respective State Workforce Agency website.
dwa3592 5mo ago
Not anymore. My PERM was cancelled for this exact reason. The job advert was put on LinkedIn and the company's website like any other job. They didn't hire the local worker either because they didn't pass the interview but my perm had to be cancelled bc a skilled local worker with "minimum qualifications" existed. What you are saying used to happen but not anymore.
- OptionOfT 5mo ago
  Interesting that there is a difference between minimum qualifications and actually qualified to do the job. What is minimum qualifications? Enough to get an interview?
  - cmiles8 5mo ago
    To successfully process a PERM a company needs to make the argument that they’ve tried and literally can’t find anyone else in the US to do the job. Thats obviously a very high bar, but for many years it was on open secret that companies mostly fudged these claims. With so many tech layoffs now it would be nearly impossible for most roles to claim there’s nobody else available, and under the current administration the historical games are no longer just flying below the radar. That hasn’t stopped some companies from still trying though.
  - dwa3592 5mo ago
    an undergrad for most of the jobs.
- ianhawes 5mo ago
  They still do the tiny print in a Sunday newspaper, they just also now are supposed to post on LinkedIn and the website (aka normal hiring process).
mpalmer 5mo ago
So punish/disincentivize employers. This is a burden on the presumptive legal immigrant.
nceqs3 5mo ago
Exactly this. The difference in the pitch to voters (labor market test) vs the actual implementation (box checking sham), just shows how dishonest the whole tech industry and immigration lobby is about this. The actual solution is somewhere in the middle, but it will likely never happen because those with political capital and high social status benefit enormously from low wage h1b/opt/l1 workers. The people who are hurt by these immigration programs don't have high social status so nobody cares. Ironic that liberals turn into libertarian boot likers for mega corps when it comes to immigration.

by cmiles8 5mo ago

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

hellojesus 5mo ago

Isn't the correct response to the sham hirings to regulate that jobs are posted on a gov-run board for some period of time, ~30 days, before you can claim no qualified workers? That seems more reasonable than turning the spigot off entirely.

cmiles8 5mo ago
Perhaps. But given the volume of abuse that appears to be out there the tactic is more turn it all off then selectively back on where appropriate. Thats obviously extreme but given the abuse in the status quo it’s hard to defend what was going on and whine about this now. Some folks are obviously angry, but that anger is better directed at those that were abusing the system not those trying to fix it.
- bsimpson 5mo ago
  It sounds like you're trying to defend going nuclear on green cards by arguing about a quirk of the H1B. The H1B system was stupid. That doesn't justify any of what the Trump admin has been doing.
  - dilyevsky 5mo ago
    PERM doesn’t just apply to h1b, having to prove no qualified hires was never required for h1b, it’s green card requirement which also applies to o1 and bunch of others. PERM is the thing that is stupid - they should automatically grant you GC if youve been legally employed for 5 years or something and dont have any criminal records
sokoloff 5mo ago
Only if that job board was an actually useful and common source for genuine hiring. If it becomes “these companies are checking a box, don’t bother applying” or “these companies are considering an H1-B application, flood them with resumes”, neither of those is helpful to qualified workers who actually want to find a job.
- hellojesus 5mo ago
  Agreed. I don't really know how the current process works, but I would assume there is some level of oversight, meaning that errant (unqualified) applicants shouldn't detract from a qualified h1b under the current system any more than a centralized one. Tying a profile to a human (gov can do this) should at least help with determining whether an applicant is qualified (not that they are an actual fit for the team) which could provide some proxy for fitness of the current pool.
  - bluecheese452 5mo ago
    I mean the entire point is that there isn’t oversight, the system is being gamed. And as a practical matter oversight is virtually impossible. The immigration system is in no position to evaluate whether a candidate is qualified or not. The job board is inevitably going to devolve into one of those scenarios.
ianhawes 5mo ago
You've just described what already has to occur for PERM, you have to post on the respective State Workforce Agency website.

dwa3592 5mo ago

Not anymore. My PERM was cancelled for this exact reason. The job advert was put on LinkedIn and the company's website like any other job. They didn't hire the local worker either because they didn't pass the interview but my perm had to be cancelled bc a skilled local worker with "minimum qualifications" existed. What you are saying used to happen but not anymore.

OptionOfT 5mo ago
Interesting that there is a difference between minimum qualifications and actually qualified to do the job. What is minimum qualifications? Enough to get an interview?
- cmiles8 5mo ago
  To successfully process a PERM a company needs to make the argument that they’ve tried and literally can’t find anyone else in the US to do the job. Thats obviously a very high bar, but for many years it was on open secret that companies mostly fudged these claims. With so many tech layoffs now it would be nearly impossible for most roles to claim there’s nobody else available, and under the current administration the historical games are no longer just flying below the radar. That hasn’t stopped some companies from still trying though.
- dwa3592 5mo ago
  an undergrad for most of the jobs.
ianhawes 5mo ago
They still do the tiny print in a Sunday newspaper, they just also now are supposed to post on LinkedIn and the website (aka normal hiring process).

mpalmer 5mo ago

So punish/disincentivize employers. This is a burden on the presumptive legal immigrant.

nceqs3 5mo ago

Exactly this. The difference in the pitch to voters (labor market test) vs the actual implementation (box checking sham), just shows how dishonest the whole tech industry and immigration lobby is about this. The actual solution is somewhere in the middle, but it will likely never happen because those with political capital and high social status benefit enormously from low wage h1b/opt/l1 workers. The people who are hurt by these immigration programs don't have high social status so nobody cares. Ironic that liberals turn into libertarian boot likers for mega corps when it comes to immigration.