4 ms·

Every single macOS update the top comments are about giving it six months to stabilize, but when a program’s biggest ever rewrite involves a lot of AI, the top

by kqp 5mo ago

Every single macOS update the top comments are about giving it six months to stabilize, but when a program’s biggest ever rewrite involves a lot of AI, the top comment is calling you irrational if you don’t YOLO it, and probably a jerk, too.

atonse 5mo ago
YOLO? Bun has an extensive test suite and this implementation passed the test suite. Can we at least try to be a bit more accurate and less hyperbolic? I will continue to use Bun because the same people that made bun have made this decision. I trusted them one week ago. I have used bun for the past 2 years, and so have many others. I'm not about to just assume they've become immature idiots yolo'ing stuff overnight. They're still the same people they were a week ago. Or two weeks ago.
- truncate 5mo ago
  >> same people that made bun have made this decision Are they the same people though? Their interests, goals, environment, incentives, boss etc etc all changed after they got acquired by Anthropic. Its not uncommon for a big company to acquire a smaller one and completely destroy that product to serve the parent company's goal.
  - atonse 5mo ago
    You can go read all the details on Jarred's X account - including the progress, how it was thought out, strategy, that they're aware that it looks like zig still, etc etc etc. Speaking of environment though, everyone neglects to mention that the Bun core team now has access to Claude Mythos. You think they haven't already run Mythos against this? So they have private access to the best cybersecurity scanner known to man. Suffice to say, I'm yet to see anything that really worries me in any major way with this.
    - truncate 5mo ago
      I've read the details, strategy, extensive test suite etc. I'm sorry, I don't think "they have access to Claude Mythos" is the rationale to it unless you truly believe the marketing 100%. I think we'll just see how it all turns out. Maybe check back in a year or two on hwo it all goes. Anyone who says they "know" or are "very sure" this is the right path or wrong path is plain stupid IMO. Having seen how things work in big companies with high market visibility, I believe there is non-trivial chance this driven mostly as marketting stunt (particularly in current climate) and decision isn't purely based on best interest of Bun's future and longevity.
    - allthetime 5mo ago
      jarred two weeks ago: "we're probably not going to merge any of this" jarred a few days ago: "bun has been rewritten in rust" thought out?
      - atonse 5mo ago
        You've never changed your mind once you got new information?
        truncate 5mo ago
        By that logic, most politicians making election promises didn’t lie or under delivered. They just changed their minds.
    - wiseowise 5mo ago
      > You can go read all the details on Jarred's X account - including the progress, how it was thought out, strategy, that they're aware that it looks like zig still, etc etc etc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48019226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48019226 > This whole thread is an overreaction. 302 comments about code that does not work. We haven’t committed to rewriting. There’s a very high chance all this code gets thrown out completely. I ain’t reading a single thing from the guy after this one.
- xdennis 5mo ago
  > this implementation passed the test suite Didn't they also change the tests to make the re-write pass?
  - Pay08 5mo ago
    They did, but they also reverted most of those changes.
- teaearlgraycold 5mo ago
  Presumably MacOS has an extensive test suite that it is passing before each disastrous release. Tests matter, but they aren’t the entire story.
- kelnos 5mo ago
  > YOLO? Bun has an extensive test suite and this implementation passed the test suite. I'm sure macOS has an extensive test suite that Apple runs as well, and yet still people suggest waiting a bit before adopting a new macOS release. An extensive test suite can prove that you have regressions when you change the code, by showing you one or more newly-failing tests. However, it cannot prove that you don't have any regressions; it can only increase your confidence somewhat.
  - atonse 5mo ago
    My argument wasn't that the test suite was perfect, my argument was that this is far from "YOLO" - this is a textbook example of being able to do bigger refactors, etc when you have an extensive test suite.
- archargelod 5mo ago
  Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence! Dijkstra (1970) "Notes On Structured Programming" LLM generated code is garbage, not because it writes obvious errors. But because it lacks any kind of reasoning - Claude will gladly write you a solution for a problem you never had. Good luck fixing these kind of issues that will never be catched by tests.
- wiseowise 5mo ago
  They can have 100% coverage for all I care, you don’t push 1 mil loc change and call it a day. > I'm not about to just assume they've become immature idiots yolo'ing stuff overnight. They're still the same people they were a week ago. Or two weeks ago. They’ve literally sold out to Anthropic.
johnfn 5mo ago
I didn't say you were irrational or a jerk. But this also isn't a fair comparison. The article doesn't say "let's wait 6 months", it says they are fully deprecating Bun. Those are two very different statements. I would have had no issue with the first. And FWIW I think my viewpoint is the uncommon one. Look at all the responses to a previous thread about it [1] and see how many of them are negative. It's certainly a majority. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48133519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48133519
- solidasparagus 5mo ago
  I don't know if your viewpoint is uncommon or if the vibe-coding hating crowd is just louder.

by kqp 5mo ago

atonse 5mo ago

YOLO? Bun has an extensive test suite and this implementation passed the test suite. Can we at least try to be a bit more accurate and less hyperbolic? I will continue to use Bun because the same people that made bun have made this decision. I trusted them one week ago. I have used bun for the past 2 years, and so have many others. I'm not about to just assume they've become immature idiots yolo'ing stuff overnight. They're still the same people they were a week ago. Or two weeks ago.

truncate 5mo ago
>> same people that made bun have made this decision Are they the same people though? Their interests, goals, environment, incentives, boss etc etc all changed after they got acquired by Anthropic. Its not uncommon for a big company to acquire a smaller one and completely destroy that product to serve the parent company's goal.
- atonse 5mo ago
  You can go read all the details on Jarred's X account - including the progress, how it was thought out, strategy, that they're aware that it looks like zig still, etc etc etc. Speaking of environment though, everyone neglects to mention that the Bun core team now has access to Claude Mythos. You think they haven't already run Mythos against this? So they have private access to the best cybersecurity scanner known to man. Suffice to say, I'm yet to see anything that really worries me in any major way with this.
  - truncate 5mo ago
    I've read the details, strategy, extensive test suite etc. I'm sorry, I don't think "they have access to Claude Mythos" is the rationale to it unless you truly believe the marketing 100%. I think we'll just see how it all turns out. Maybe check back in a year or two on hwo it all goes. Anyone who says they "know" or are "very sure" this is the right path or wrong path is plain stupid IMO. Having seen how things work in big companies with high market visibility, I believe there is non-trivial chance this driven mostly as marketting stunt (particularly in current climate) and decision isn't purely based on best interest of Bun's future and longevity.
  - allthetime 5mo ago
    jarred two weeks ago: "we're probably not going to merge any of this" jarred a few days ago: "bun has been rewritten in rust" thought out?
    - atonse 5mo ago
      You've never changed your mind once you got new information?
      - truncate 5mo ago
        By that logic, most politicians making election promises didn’t lie or under delivered. They just changed their minds.
  - wiseowise 5mo ago
    > You can go read all the details on Jarred's X account - including the progress, how it was thought out, strategy, that they're aware that it looks like zig still, etc etc etc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48019226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48019226 > This whole thread is an overreaction. 302 comments about code that does not work. We haven’t committed to rewriting. There’s a very high chance all this code gets thrown out completely. I ain’t reading a single thing from the guy after this one.
xdennis 5mo ago
> this implementation passed the test suite Didn't they also change the tests to make the re-write pass?
- Pay08 5mo ago
  They did, but they also reverted most of those changes.
teaearlgraycold 5mo ago
Presumably MacOS has an extensive test suite that it is passing before each disastrous release. Tests matter, but they aren’t the entire story.
kelnos 5mo ago
> YOLO? Bun has an extensive test suite and this implementation passed the test suite. I'm sure macOS has an extensive test suite that Apple runs as well, and yet still people suggest waiting a bit before adopting a new macOS release. An extensive test suite can prove that you have regressions when you change the code, by showing you one or more newly-failing tests. However, it cannot prove that you don't have any regressions; it can only increase your confidence somewhat.
- atonse 5mo ago
  My argument wasn't that the test suite was perfect, my argument was that this is far from "YOLO" - this is a textbook example of being able to do bigger refactors, etc when you have an extensive test suite.
archargelod 5mo ago
Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence! Dijkstra (1970) "Notes On Structured Programming" LLM generated code is garbage, not because it writes obvious errors. But because it lacks any kind of reasoning - Claude will gladly write you a solution for a problem you never had. Good luck fixing these kind of issues that will never be catched by tests.
wiseowise 5mo ago
They can have 100% coverage for all I care, you don’t push 1 mil loc change and call it a day. > I'm not about to just assume they've become immature idiots yolo'ing stuff overnight. They're still the same people they were a week ago. Or two weeks ago. They’ve literally sold out to Anthropic.

johnfn 5mo ago

I didn't say you were irrational or a jerk. But this also isn't a fair comparison. The article doesn't say "let's wait 6 months", it says they are fully deprecating Bun. Those are two very different statements. I would have had no issue with the first. And FWIW I think my viewpoint is the uncommon one. Look at all the responses to a previous thread about it [1] and see how many of them are negative. It's certainly a majority. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48133519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48133519

solidasparagus 5mo ago
I don't know if your viewpoint is uncommon or if the vibe-coding hating crowd is just louder.