4 ms·

> I have to wonder why that, culturally, seems to be linked to Asians? This is a complex issue, but the shallow explanation is the test taking culture. There h

> I have to wonder why that, culturally, seems to be linked to Asians? This is a complex issue, but the shallow explanation is the test taking culture. There have been reports of widespread (and sophisticated) cheating in the national Korean university entrance exams over howevermany past years that I can recall. I was told that this is because Koreans basically get one shot at the exam. It practically makes or breaks your life. So everything you do in life, up until that point, is in preparation for the fight. I must stress again though, that this is a shallow look at the problem.

pg 18y ago
There's also a tradition of respect for parents, and parents like good grades. Indeed, at younger ages, grades are reports to parents.
- drinian 18y ago
  There are few societies that don't teach respect for parents in some form. The difference seems to be that there are many fewer obligations on the parents in the Confucian model; in the extreme version as related in the article, children are basically servants of the parents' whims.
jerf 18y ago
"I was told that this is because Koreans basically get one shot at the exam. It practically makes or breaks your life." People talk about the superior nature of the American higher education system, which might seem strange if you are used to hearing about how much it sucks, but of course those criticisms are talking about two different things. The American system is superior because you can get a second chance in almost anything. You'll have to pay, but you can get a second chance. If you don't like your major, you can change at any time, carrying over what you can. This sounds so stupidly obvious if you grew up in the US that you may not realize that even in otherwise very enlightened societies like Europe, this is not how it works. In the UK, you declare your major in high school and from what I've heard talking to people who went there, it is possible to change, but very, very hard. Now, match that against the number of people who change majors in the US... almost everybody does within their first year! Even if you count "real major" -> "real major", i.e., one real engineering to another real engineering and not something like "real engineering" -> "English degree", you're looking at a lot of motion. It's really strange to me how much this has stuck in those places when, in general, it would be really easy to pick up that aspect of the American system. I suppose it should be pointed out that there are still some clear advantages to American culture, for as much as people love to dump on it.
- glymor 18y ago
  You're generalising from one data point. Even within the UK, Scotland has a 4 year degree and England a 3 year. Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything. The only other part of Europe that I know about Germany is vastly more lenient with people staying students seemingly forever. One guy I talked to claimed that they couldn't afford to finish as the loss in student discounts would be too abrupt. Kind of like people on unemployment who would have to take a pay cut to start working. And of course just because people can switch doesn't mean they do. Whether it's in someway normal to switch seems to play a larger role (generalizing from two data points...)
  - jerf 18y ago
    "You're generalising from one data point." No, I'm not. I'm sharing a general observation with wide validity associatively triggered by one person's post. It's a conversational thing. "Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything." Do you mean this as some sort of evidence against my point? (Honest question, I'm not sure.) It's evidence for it. "And of course just because people can switch doesn't mean they do. Whether it's in someway normal to switch seems to play a larger role (generalizing from two data points...)" Culture. Even if there are no technical barriers, if the culture forbids it, or makes the thought unthinkable somehow, it causes friction.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
- mattmcknight 18y ago
  It's a good point, but you actually do a second shot at the Korean exam. It actually makes it harder, because you are competing against people that finished high school and didn't get the score they wanted on the exam, so have spent the entire last year studying for the exam. To me, this points out a fatal flaw in the Korean test, it's not hard enough. It's hard enough from a comprehensiveness standpoint, but it's not from a level of knowledge standpoint. Put simply, an effective test should show what level you are at in a topic. A test should advance to higher levels of thinking, to places where knowledge is not merely facts. It should go beyond the furthest course offered to determine who is truly advanced, rather than see who learned the standard class the most completely. Another flaw in the Korean system is that the actual university experience is lessened, because you have already proven yourself getting in and simply graduating is sufficient.

pg 18y ago

There's also a tradition of respect for parents, and parents like good grades. Indeed, at younger ages, grades are reports to parents.

drinian 18y ago
There are few societies that don't teach respect for parents in some form. The difference seems to be that there are many fewer obligations on the parents in the Confucian model; in the extreme version as related in the article, children are basically servants of the parents' whims.

jerf 18y ago

"I was told that this is because Koreans basically get one shot at the exam. It practically makes or breaks your life." People talk about the superior nature of the American higher education system, which might seem strange if you are used to hearing about how much it sucks, but of course those criticisms are talking about two different things. The American system is superior because you can get a second chance in almost anything. You'll have to pay, but you can get a second chance. If you don't like your major, you can change at any time, carrying over what you can. This sounds so stupidly obvious if you grew up in the US that you may not realize that even in otherwise very enlightened societies like Europe, this is not how it works. In the UK, you declare your major in high school and from what I've heard talking to people who went there, it is possible to change, but very, very hard. Now, match that against the number of people who change majors in the US... almost everybody does within their first year! Even if you count "real major" -> "real major", i.e., one real engineering to another real engineering and not something like "real engineering" -> "English degree", you're looking at a lot of motion. It's really strange to me how much this has stuck in those places when, in general, it would be really easy to pick up that aspect of the American system. I suppose it should be pointed out that there are still some clear advantages to American culture, for as much as people love to dump on it.

glymor 18y ago
You're generalising from one data point. Even within the UK, Scotland has a 4 year degree and England a 3 year. Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything. The only other part of Europe that I know about Germany is vastly more lenient with people staying students seemingly forever. One guy I talked to claimed that they couldn't afford to finish as the loss in student discounts would be too abrupt. Kind of like people on unemployment who would have to take a pay cut to start working. And of course just because people can switch doesn't mean they do. Whether it's in someway normal to switch seems to play a larger role (generalizing from two data points...)
- jerf 18y ago
  "You're generalising from one data point." No, I'm not. I'm sharing a general observation with wide validity associatively triggered by one person's post. It's a conversational thing. "Generally in Scotland you can switch to your minor at the end of the first year without losing anything." Do you mean this as some sort of evidence against my point? (Honest question, I'm not sure.) It's evidence for it. "And of course just because people can switch doesn't mean they do. Whether it's in someway normal to switch seems to play a larger role (generalizing from two data points...)" Culture. Even if there are no technical barriers, if the culture forbids it, or makes the thought unthinkable somehow, it causes friction.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
mattmcknight 18y ago
It's a good point, but you actually do a second shot at the Korean exam. It actually makes it harder, because you are competing against people that finished high school and didn't get the score they wanted on the exam, so have spent the entire last year studying for the exam. To me, this points out a fatal flaw in the Korean test, it's not hard enough. It's hard enough from a comprehensiveness standpoint, but it's not from a level of knowledge standpoint. Put simply, an effective test should show what level you are at in a topic. A test should advance to higher levels of thinking, to places where knowledge is not merely facts. It should go beyond the furthest course offered to determine who is truly advanced, rather than see who learned the standard class the most completely. Another flaw in the Korean system is that the actual university experience is lessened, because you have already proven yourself getting in and simply graduating is sufficient.