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I don't know how society will function when it's as easy to fake a video or image as it is to draw a stick figure. Hopefully it at least means that people view

I don't know how society will function when it's as easy to fake a video or image as it is to draw a stick figure. Hopefully it at least means that people view what happened here as akin to scribbling boobs on someone's photo, but we're not there yet apparently.

Sharlin 5mo ago
Hopefully we’ll get back to the time back when people didn’t have to worry about someone filming them all the time. Cameras cryptographically signing all photos and videos should become the standard. Media that cannot be traced back to real camera hardware should a priori be considered fake or tampered with. Still, deepfakes are partly a social problem and, as should be well known, social problems can rarely be solved by technological solutions.
- _el1s7 5mo ago
  That won't work, a camera can also photograph another screen or a fake printed photo. And also cryptographic modules can be cracked.
  - petesergeant 5mo ago
    I would have thought most iPhones absolutely know if they're photographing a scene or a flat surface
    - _el1s7 5mo ago
      Yes, iPhone has some clever depth technologies, but that doesn't mean it can't be tampered with.
  - Sharlin 5mo ago
    Nothing is ever foolproof, but also, public-key crypto signatures are as secure as can be. Sure, you might be able to eventually extract a private key from camera hardware, but that's on the level of intelligence agencies, completely beyond the current situation of deepfakes being possible to make by anyone with an internet connection and no skills.
    - nvme0n1p1 5mo ago
      > that's on the level of intelligence agencies I think you meant to say: a single eastern European teenager who gets bored one weekend. These systems have been around for decades, and they've continually been hacked for decades too.
- CalRobert 5mo ago
  I can't imagine that governments will end their zeal for surveillance.
- sirsinsalot 5mo ago
  This is another example of treating normal behaviour as criminal. Like banning VPNs or age verification. How about we undo the radical individualism that has rotted out any compassion and empathy from society in the pursuit of greed? Not as easy to do granted, but it's a social technical debt that can't be quick fixed.
  - Sharlin 5mo ago
    I'm not sure how deepfakes are an example of "compassion and empathy rotted out from society in the pursuit of greed". They're just your standard issue human condition, if it's possible to grief a person then there's always someone willing to do just that. Doesn't mean we have to suffer that.
    - sirsinsalot 5mo ago
      In a compassionate society with community mindedness people are less likely to use tools like this for mindless hurt. Our current culture isnt aligned with compassion due to individualism and greed. You sound like you've given up on nurturing humanity and instead want to enforce good behaviour as if the base human condition is to hurt others by default. These are often young boys behaving in ways that are misogynistic and heartless. Usually following the examples of heartless parents and peers. We can do better. They're kids learning the wrongs lessons about the world.
prodigycorp 5mo ago
Perhaps there is reason to be optimistic. If we believe nothing online, then digital inauthenticity may cause us to yearn more for authentic, in-person interactions. The modern web has not been without its warts. It's led society to some very unhealthy behaviors. It's telling that a lot of people think the internet is society, rather than a slice of it. Perhaps its decline is the correction society needed. It's easy to feel like a doomer if you're thinking "it's sad that the web is being torn apart" and your framing of the web is "the magical place of promise it used to be 25 years ago."
- CalRobert 5mo ago
  Suddenly a polaroid feels better than any digital photo.
  - nunodonato 5mo ago
    I've been leaning to more analog (and "old") stuff these days. Not sure if it's because I'm tired of all the crap online, or its a coincidence of getting older and missing the old times. Maybe a bit of both. But I really enjoy sitting in my living room and do nothing except listen to my record and cd player.
    - CalRobert 5mo ago
      I feel a little like a rebel every time I pay with cash. Funny that cd's are comparatively analog. (I get your meaning though).
      - nunodonato 5mo ago
        Yeah, that's true, they are digital, but still feel "old". I was quite amazed while playing a vinyl record, accidentally lowered the volume down to 0, and could still literally hear a bit of sound coming out, not from the speakers, from the needle touching the record. Then I remembered that it's the actual sound waves that are engraved in the record. Amazing stuff
noosphr 5mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Read You will have no compute and you will like it. The top comment here is about arresting the children for distributing child porn. We really should have kept the normies out.
b65e8bee43c2ed0 5mo ago
it functioned just fine for the past 50 years. digital manipulation of media had always been possible. americans simply didn't have a society-wide psychosis during the early days of personal computing and Internet.
- sirsinsalot 5mo ago
  It took some skill and time before to make anything passable as realistic. Enough skill and time to defeat a teenagers motivation. That's the difference. "make the person in this photo naked. No mistakes" Prompts lowered the bar. Even if you do have to install a local text to image model.
  - b65e8bee43c2ed0 5mo ago
    very soon no one will takes these things seriously, And That's A Good Thing. there are, for example, websites that host (among a myriad other such things) style-accurate pictures of every Disney princess being fucked in every way imaginable. 70 years ago something like this might have caused a similar moral panic, but now no one (rightfully) gives a shit. you see a picture of Cinderella with a dick up her ass, you know it wasn't drawn by Disney.
    - cindyllm 5mo ago
      [dead]
    - pjc50 5mo ago
      Cinderella isn't going to complain because she's not a real person. The problem here is making and distributing fakes of specific real people.
      - ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
        Bizarrely, Cinderella probably has better protection/rights than real people do. Disney could easily assign a fleet of lawyers to protect their intellectual property and get websites taken down.
fny 5mo ago
We need a way to prove what's real.
- _el1s7 5mo ago
  Just put your phone down.
m463 5mo ago
> draw a stick figure. I hope we don't start getting xkcd fakes.

Sharlin 5mo ago

Hopefully we’ll get back to the time back when people didn’t have to worry about someone filming them all the time. Cameras cryptographically signing all photos and videos should become the standard. Media that cannot be traced back to real camera hardware should a priori be considered fake or tampered with. Still, deepfakes are partly a social problem and, as should be well known, social problems can rarely be solved by technological solutions.

_el1s7 5mo ago
That won't work, a camera can also photograph another screen or a fake printed photo. And also cryptographic modules can be cracked.
- petesergeant 5mo ago
  I would have thought most iPhones absolutely know if they're photographing a scene or a flat surface
  - _el1s7 5mo ago
    Yes, iPhone has some clever depth technologies, but that doesn't mean it can't be tampered with.
- Sharlin 5mo ago
  Nothing is ever foolproof, but also, public-key crypto signatures are as secure as can be. Sure, you might be able to eventually extract a private key from camera hardware, but that's on the level of intelligence agencies, completely beyond the current situation of deepfakes being possible to make by anyone with an internet connection and no skills.
  - nvme0n1p1 5mo ago
    > that's on the level of intelligence agencies I think you meant to say: a single eastern European teenager who gets bored one weekend. These systems have been around for decades, and they've continually been hacked for decades too.
CalRobert 5mo ago
I can't imagine that governments will end their zeal for surveillance.
sirsinsalot 5mo ago
This is another example of treating normal behaviour as criminal. Like banning VPNs or age verification. How about we undo the radical individualism that has rotted out any compassion and empathy from society in the pursuit of greed? Not as easy to do granted, but it's a social technical debt that can't be quick fixed.
- Sharlin 5mo ago
  I'm not sure how deepfakes are an example of "compassion and empathy rotted out from society in the pursuit of greed". They're just your standard issue human condition, if it's possible to grief a person then there's always someone willing to do just that. Doesn't mean we have to suffer that.
  - sirsinsalot 5mo ago
    In a compassionate society with community mindedness people are less likely to use tools like this for mindless hurt. Our current culture isnt aligned with compassion due to individualism and greed. You sound like you've given up on nurturing humanity and instead want to enforce good behaviour as if the base human condition is to hurt others by default. These are often young boys behaving in ways that are misogynistic and heartless. Usually following the examples of heartless parents and peers. We can do better. They're kids learning the wrongs lessons about the world.

prodigycorp 5mo ago

Perhaps there is reason to be optimistic. If we believe nothing online, then digital inauthenticity may cause us to yearn more for authentic, in-person interactions. The modern web has not been without its warts. It's led society to some very unhealthy behaviors. It's telling that a lot of people think the internet is society, rather than a slice of it. Perhaps its decline is the correction society needed. It's easy to feel like a doomer if you're thinking "it's sad that the web is being torn apart" and your framing of the web is "the magical place of promise it used to be 25 years ago."

CalRobert 5mo ago
Suddenly a polaroid feels better than any digital photo.
- nunodonato 5mo ago
  I've been leaning to more analog (and "old") stuff these days. Not sure if it's because I'm tired of all the crap online, or its a coincidence of getting older and missing the old times. Maybe a bit of both. But I really enjoy sitting in my living room and do nothing except listen to my record and cd player.
  - CalRobert 5mo ago
    I feel a little like a rebel every time I pay with cash. Funny that cd's are comparatively analog. (I get your meaning though).
    - nunodonato 5mo ago
      Yeah, that's true, they are digital, but still feel "old". I was quite amazed while playing a vinyl record, accidentally lowered the volume down to 0, and could still literally hear a bit of sound coming out, not from the speakers, from the needle touching the record. Then I remembered that it's the actual sound waves that are engraved in the record. Amazing stuff

noosphr 5mo ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Read You will have no compute and you will like it. The top comment here is about arresting the children for distributing child porn. We really should have kept the normies out.

b65e8bee43c2ed0 5mo ago

it functioned just fine for the past 50 years. digital manipulation of media had always been possible. americans simply didn't have a society-wide psychosis during the early days of personal computing and Internet.

sirsinsalot 5mo ago
It took some skill and time before to make anything passable as realistic. Enough skill and time to defeat a teenagers motivation. That's the difference. "make the person in this photo naked. No mistakes" Prompts lowered the bar. Even if you do have to install a local text to image model.
- b65e8bee43c2ed0 5mo ago
  very soon no one will takes these things seriously, And That's A Good Thing. there are, for example, websites that host (among a myriad other such things) style-accurate pictures of every Disney princess being fucked in every way imaginable. 70 years ago something like this might have caused a similar moral panic, but now no one (rightfully) gives a shit. you see a picture of Cinderella with a dick up her ass, you know it wasn't drawn by Disney.
  - cindyllm 5mo ago
    [dead]
  - pjc50 5mo ago
    Cinderella isn't going to complain because she's not a real person. The problem here is making and distributing fakes of specific real people.
    - ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
      Bizarrely, Cinderella probably has better protection/rights than real people do. Disney could easily assign a fleet of lawyers to protect their intellectual property and get websites taken down.

fny 5mo ago

We need a way to prove what's real.

_el1s7 5mo ago
Just put your phone down.

m463 5mo ago

> draw a stick figure. I hope we don't start getting xkcd fakes.