3 ms·

They should figure out a way where you rent them with a credit card, and if you don't return it and scan your credit card getting credit for returning it, they

They should figure out a way where you rent them with a credit card, and if you don't return it and scan your credit card getting credit for returning it, they charge you to replace it. They could still get damaged and returned as such, but at least they couldn't get completely stolen, which is the most valuable thing for criminals to do since that actually gets them money.

enqk 18y ago
Here's the thing I don't understand. You cannot rent the bike unless you use a debit card (credit cards are very rare in france) or a monthly/yearly metro subscription. So they actually must know who rented the bike when it disappeared.
- jackowayed 18y ago
  oh, that's weird. You'd think they'd just charge them for it then. Also, >credit cards are very rare in france You mean you guys don't generally allow yourselves to get deep into debt at absurd interest rates? I can't imagine living in a country like that! Next you're going to tell me that when you have
  - cedsav 18y ago
    Bank ('debit') cards in France kinda work like US credit cards. The bank will happily let your account balance go negative and then charge you fees+high interest rate. I've been in the US 7 years and I haven't quite yet understood why credit cards companies and banks are separate entities. (regulation?)
    - jackowayed 18y ago
      If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably just because that's how it always has been. Bank accounts where you put your money and loans have always been separate. So when credit cards came around, it probably wasn't an existing bank saying "maybe we'll let people go negative and then charge them huge interest"; it was a separate entity offering people what essentially is a way to be conveniently loaned money. They probably just never integrated into 1 entity. There may be regulation as well, but none that I know.
    - enqk 18y ago
      French banks usually give a (small) credit line above which deposits must stay (interest-free). Below it you pay the full fledged interest rate + fee. The debit cards tend to debit your purchases at the end of the month too. So in the usual case, within the credit line, it is financed by fees rather than interests. However credit cards do exist, even if they have been maligned for a long time in media: Major credit card issuers in France are often linked to the retail sector (see http://www.pass.fr http://www.pass.fr) .. others got consolidated into traditional banks (cetelem for example) The traditionally French "no permanent credit" model for banks tend to raise fees and favour low deposits I guess. In both cases anyway the banks pray on the poor / moderately poor people to "dress them up" with all sorts of products and credits they don't need. (And arguably, that society pays up after 30 years)
- colins_pride 18y ago
  If you can figure out how to trick the system, you get unlimited access to $500 bikes. That's a much better incentive than the guy who built the system had.
mgornick 18y ago
Agreed. If the bike doesn't get returned, simply charge the account for the cost of a new bike. It would also be helpful (and maybe costly) to implement some RFID solution to keep track of the unique bikes and the user pairs. If a bike is damaged, the rider can fill out a form online and the company can charge-back the previous user if its not standard wear and tear. This would cut down on the vandalism of the bikes.
- mattmcknight 18y ago
  And the pedals could power the transmitter. It could work on a dual RFID solution, one in the bike, one in your rental card. Riding the bike without a renters card could then trigger the giant sky magnet to aim at that bike and suck up the thief. "The Bicycle Thief 2: Paris" coming to theaters next year? [ http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19990319/REVIEWS08/903190306/1023 http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19... ]
sounddust 18y ago
That's exactly how it works (well, you can use a debit or credit card) and in fact, if you're not a subscriber, a hold of 150€ is placed on your card until you return the bike. But I think they have to put an artifically low hold of 150€ on the bike (instead of the real cost of 400€) because far fewer could and/or would use it if that much money was held. A lot of the bikes are stolen from people who rented them (and in this case, maybe the person doesn't have to pay the 150€ if he/she can prove it?). Some are stolen from the trucks that are used to regularly transfer bikes across the city to even the distribution. Some people figured out how to hack the kiosk to give them multiple bikes for one payment (that has since been patched). Also, people can of course get them with stolen credit cards and by breaking the lock. You can see how the thefts can add up. I don't think the system is doomed though because people in Paris absolutley love the Velibs and want them to stay. I'm sure that they'll figure something out, whether it's higher rental costs, extra security or something else.

enqk 18y ago

Here's the thing I don't understand. You cannot rent the bike unless you use a debit card (credit cards are very rare in france) or a monthly/yearly metro subscription. So they actually must know who rented the bike when it disappeared.

jackowayed 18y ago
oh, that's weird. You'd think they'd just charge them for it then. Also, >credit cards are very rare in france You mean you guys don't generally allow yourselves to get deep into debt at absurd interest rates? I can't imagine living in a country like that! Next you're going to tell me that when you have
- cedsav 18y ago
  Bank ('debit') cards in France kinda work like US credit cards. The bank will happily let your account balance go negative and then charge you fees+high interest rate. I've been in the US 7 years and I haven't quite yet understood why credit cards companies and banks are separate entities. (regulation?)
  - jackowayed 18y ago
    If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably just because that's how it always has been. Bank accounts where you put your money and loans have always been separate. So when credit cards came around, it probably wasn't an existing bank saying "maybe we'll let people go negative and then charge them huge interest"; it was a separate entity offering people what essentially is a way to be conveniently loaned money. They probably just never integrated into 1 entity. There may be regulation as well, but none that I know.
  - enqk 18y ago
    French banks usually give a (small) credit line above which deposits must stay (interest-free). Below it you pay the full fledged interest rate + fee. The debit cards tend to debit your purchases at the end of the month too. So in the usual case, within the credit line, it is financed by fees rather than interests. However credit cards do exist, even if they have been maligned for a long time in media: Major credit card issuers in France are often linked to the retail sector (see http://www.pass.fr http://www.pass.fr) .. others got consolidated into traditional banks (cetelem for example) The traditionally French "no permanent credit" model for banks tend to raise fees and favour low deposits I guess. In both cases anyway the banks pray on the poor / moderately poor people to "dress them up" with all sorts of products and credits they don't need. (And arguably, that society pays up after 30 years)
colins_pride 18y ago
If you can figure out how to trick the system, you get unlimited access to $500 bikes. That's a much better incentive than the guy who built the system had.

mgornick 18y ago

Agreed. If the bike doesn't get returned, simply charge the account for the cost of a new bike. It would also be helpful (and maybe costly) to implement some RFID solution to keep track of the unique bikes and the user pairs. If a bike is damaged, the rider can fill out a form online and the company can charge-back the previous user if its not standard wear and tear. This would cut down on the vandalism of the bikes.

mattmcknight 18y ago
And the pedals could power the transmitter. It could work on a dual RFID solution, one in the bike, one in your rental card. Riding the bike without a renters card could then trigger the giant sky magnet to aim at that bike and suck up the thief. "The Bicycle Thief 2: Paris" coming to theaters next year? [ http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19990319/REVIEWS08/903190306/1023 http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19... ]

sounddust 18y ago

That's exactly how it works (well, you can use a debit or credit card) and in fact, if you're not a subscriber, a hold of 150€ is placed on your card until you return the bike. But I think they have to put an artifically low hold of 150€ on the bike (instead of the real cost of 400€) because far fewer could and/or would use it if that much money was held. A lot of the bikes are stolen from people who rented them (and in this case, maybe the person doesn't have to pay the 150€ if he/she can prove it?). Some are stolen from the trucks that are used to regularly transfer bikes across the city to even the distribution. Some people figured out how to hack the kiosk to give them multiple bikes for one payment (that has since been patched). Also, people can of course get them with stolen credit cards and by breaking the lock. You can see how the thefts can add up. I don't think the system is doomed though because people in Paris absolutley love the Velibs and want them to stay. I'm sure that they'll figure something out, whether it's higher rental costs, extra security or something else.