4 ms·

I'd agree if this was more like a Freenet v3, but it's an entirely different project with completely different goals.

by pikdum 5mo ago

sanity 5mo ago
How are the goals different?
- cess11 5mo ago
  "Anonymity: While the previous version was designed with a focus on anonymity, the current version does not offer built-in anonymity but allows for a choice of anonymizing systems to be layered on top." https://freenet.org/about/faq/ https://freenet.org/about/faq/
  - sanity 5mo ago
    How is offering the user more choice with respect to anonymity changing the goals of the project?
    - KaiserPro 5mo ago
      the _point_ of freenet was that you could anonymously share/store information. For better or worse, that was the point of it. It also drove the UX and tradeoffs for the network. It was slower than Kazaa/bittorrent, but it was far harder to work out who was shareing what. (if memory serves it also chunked files up so they weren;t on the same machine, but that could be me misremembering)
      - ArneBab 5mo ago
        yes, it chunks files, and aggregates multiple chunks per packet, and pads packets it sends around, so size analysis by the ISP cannot trace the path.
      - sanity 5mo ago
        > the _point_ of freenet was that you could anonymously share/store information. As you can with the new Freenet, you just get a menu of options instead of being forced to use a one-size-fits-all approach to anonymity.
    - cess11 5mo ago
      I kind of see "focus" in the FAQ and "goals" in this thread as interchangeable. It would surprise me if this would not be a common interpretation of these texts alone among the readers here. As for the general reputation of the OG Freenet in this lineage, to the extent I'm aware, anonymity was pretty much the defining characteristic. More or less everything else in the user experience suffered to some extent compared to other chat and file sharing services because of this "focus".
      - sanity 5mo ago
        If we're doing archaeology, my original 1999 paper was called "A Distributed Decentralized Information Storage and Retrieval System".
        cess11 5mo ago
        Fine. Page 6, which is Chapter 2, under the heading Aims, there is a numbered list. What is the second item in this list?
        sanity 5mo ago
        If you have a point to make you should make it.
        cess11 4mo ago
        I'll quote it then: 2. It should provide anonymity to b oth providers and consumers of informa- tion
        sanity 4mo ago
        And? The new Freenet provides a menu of options for anonymity which is strictly better than imposing the same (imperfect) anonymity solution on everyone.
- nextgens 5mo ago
  I've abstained form interfering until now... but have you honestly forgotten? Please explain how "the new freenet" tackles censorship resistance. https://web.archive.org/web/20001017133926/http://freenetproject.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20001017133926/http://freenetpro... "Freenet is a peer-to-peer network designed to allow the distribution of information over the Internet in an efficient manner, without fear of censorship." https://web.archive.org/web/20050201110519/http://freenetproject.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20050201110519/http://freenetpro... "Freenet is free software which lets you publish and obtain information on the Internet without fear of censorship." https://web.archive.org/web/20150206152355/https://freenetproject.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150206152355/https://freenetpr... "Share files, chat on forums, browse and publish, anonymously and without fear of blocking or censorship!" today: "Hyphanet is peer-to-peer network for censorship-resistant and privacy-respecting publishing and communication." the new freenet: ?!?
  - SiempreViernes 5mo ago
    Are there any success stories about Hyphanet's censorship resistance mattering? Beyond serving run-of-the mill copyrigh violations (and probably child porn) I never heard anything about the content on Hyphanet. Even now when people in the US are organising against a fascist regime it's mostly WhatsApp and maybe Signal.
    - nextgens 5mo ago
      Thank you for the downvotes. You're moving the debate here. The question was "How are the goals different?" from the project leader (who ought to know better), not whether moving them makes sense.
      - SiempreViernes 5mo ago
        Well I guess you think the important part of the goals is to make censorship technically difficult, without regard to if the software actually facilitates political speech at all. Others could argue that software nobody uses for its stated purpose has failed; but you are right that is technically a different discussion than the one you started.
Alex_toani 5mo ago
So what's the different between Hyphanet and Freenet? Only some anonymity？ I have try the River chat. I'm not sure how to find a people chat in here. It's hard.

I'd agree if this was more like a Freenet v3, but it's an entirely different project with completely different goals.

by pikdum 5mo ago

I'd agree if this was more like a Freenet v3, but it's an entirely different project with completely different goals.

sanity 5mo ago

How are the goals different?

cess11 5mo ago
"Anonymity: While the previous version was designed with a focus on anonymity, the current version does not offer built-in anonymity but allows for a choice of anonymizing systems to be layered on top." https://freenet.org/about/faq/ https://freenet.org/about/faq/
- sanity 5mo ago
  How is offering the user more choice with respect to anonymity changing the goals of the project?
  - KaiserPro 5mo ago
    the _point_ of freenet was that you could anonymously share/store information. For better or worse, that was the point of it. It also drove the UX and tradeoffs for the network. It was slower than Kazaa/bittorrent, but it was far harder to work out who was shareing what. (if memory serves it also chunked files up so they weren;t on the same machine, but that could be me misremembering)
    - ArneBab 5mo ago
      yes, it chunks files, and aggregates multiple chunks per packet, and pads packets it sends around, so size analysis by the ISP cannot trace the path.
    - sanity 5mo ago
      > the _point_ of freenet was that you could anonymously share/store information. As you can with the new Freenet, you just get a menu of options instead of being forced to use a one-size-fits-all approach to anonymity.
  - cess11 5mo ago
    I kind of see "focus" in the FAQ and "goals" in this thread as interchangeable. It would surprise me if this would not be a common interpretation of these texts alone among the readers here. As for the general reputation of the OG Freenet in this lineage, to the extent I'm aware, anonymity was pretty much the defining characteristic. More or less everything else in the user experience suffered to some extent compared to other chat and file sharing services because of this "focus".
    - sanity 5mo ago
      If we're doing archaeology, my original 1999 paper was called "A Distributed Decentralized Information Storage and Retrieval System".
      - cess11 5mo ago
        Fine. Page 6, which is Chapter 2, under the heading Aims, there is a numbered list. What is the second item in this list?
        sanity 5mo ago
        If you have a point to make you should make it.
        cess11 4mo ago
        I'll quote it then: 2. It should provide anonymity to b oth providers and consumers of informa- tion
        sanity 4mo ago
        And? The new Freenet provides a menu of options for anonymity which is strictly better than imposing the same (imperfect) anonymity solution on everyone.
nextgens 5mo ago
I've abstained form interfering until now... but have you honestly forgotten? Please explain how "the new freenet" tackles censorship resistance. https://web.archive.org/web/20001017133926/http://freenetproject.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20001017133926/http://freenetpro... "Freenet is a peer-to-peer network designed to allow the distribution of information over the Internet in an efficient manner, without fear of censorship." https://web.archive.org/web/20050201110519/http://freenetproject.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20050201110519/http://freenetpro... "Freenet is free software which lets you publish and obtain information on the Internet without fear of censorship." https://web.archive.org/web/20150206152355/https://freenetproject.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150206152355/https://freenetpr... "Share files, chat on forums, browse and publish, anonymously and without fear of blocking or censorship!" today: "Hyphanet is peer-to-peer network for censorship-resistant and privacy-respecting publishing and communication." the new freenet: ?!?
- SiempreViernes 5mo ago
  Are there any success stories about Hyphanet's censorship resistance mattering? Beyond serving run-of-the mill copyrigh violations (and probably child porn) I never heard anything about the content on Hyphanet. Even now when people in the US are organising against a fascist regime it's mostly WhatsApp and maybe Signal.
  - nextgens 5mo ago
    Thank you for the downvotes. You're moving the debate here. The question was "How are the goals different?" from the project leader (who ought to know better), not whether moving them makes sense.
    - SiempreViernes 5mo ago
      Well I guess you think the important part of the goals is to make censorship technically difficult, without regard to if the software actually facilitates political speech at all. Others could argue that software nobody uses for its stated purpose has failed; but you are right that is technically a different discussion than the one you started.

Alex_toani 5mo ago

So what's the different between Hyphanet and Freenet? Only some anonymity？ I have try the River chat. I'm not sure how to find a people chat in here. It's hard.