5 ms·

In 1998 bbedit 5.0 cost $120 usd. Adjusted for inflation that would be about $245 usd. Today an individual license costs $60. Wild how software pricing and sa

In 1998 bbedit 5.0 cost $120 usd. Adjusted for inflation that would be about $245 usd. Today an individual license costs $60. Wild how software pricing and sales models have changed, and good on bare bones for staying away from subscription pricing.

factorialboy 5mo ago
The pie (market) has also vastly expanded since 1998. Need to factor that, and not just inflation.
- sedatk 5mo ago
  Proportionally, competition has vastly expanded too.
- kennywinker 5mo ago
  I assumed that was implied pretty heavily by what I said. Either they were overcharging in 1998, or the market got bigger.
pokstad 5mo ago
The software world is different today. People expect you to release security updates as vulnerabilities are discovered. They expect you to fix your application so that it works on the newest macOS that deprecated and broke the old APIs you used (or switch architectures). We expect continuous maintenance for a fixed price. I wish Textmate had a yearly charge to keep their team running instead of the one time purchase that starved them.
- hgs3 5mo ago
  I think there is one major difference that separates the two eras: in ye olden days you bought software for a fixed price and while it's understood you might only receive updates for a limited time, you could continue using it so long as you had the ability to run it. For example, you didn't have to upgrade to Windows XP if you were satisfied with Windows 98. With subscriptions, it's a recurring fee to continue accessing the software at all.
  - pokstad 5mo ago
    Windows sells more copies of its software the OEM route. Also, they sell specific versions that eventually end support. Today you might consider Windows almost a loss leader since Microsoft is diversified with many services on top of windows.
    - simjnd 5mo ago
      It ignores the point. If I've bought BBEdit 13 for 60 USD three years ago and I'm still happy with it, I can keep using it for the rest of my life without paying more. If I want the new features, then I can pay 40 USD to get the latest version. This is a sane AND a sustainable model for companies, and actually creates MORE incentives for the developers to align with the user's interest: if the new update sucks and has features no one asked for, then nobody will pay for the new version and keep the old one. There is no reason why previous versions of the software you paid a license for should effectively "disappear".
      - simondotau 5mo ago
        I’m a fan of the subscription model where if you stop paying, you continue to have a license for the last version you got during the subscription. I’ve appreciated that in a few apps where my need for them on a daily basis evaporated but I still need to briefly touch that system once every few months.
- jms703 5mo ago
  Yep. Give people two choices. 1) Purchase a major version and get no updates. 2) Purchase a subscription and get constant updates.
  - bayindirh 5mo ago
    Or use "The Dutch Model": Pay for the major version, get all of its updates. Then pay for update (to next major plus its updates) with a discount. If you don't prefer the pay, you can keep what you have. This is what Reaper, Forklift, CameraBag and countless others do, and it works very well. Edit: This comment contained Forklift as an example before, but they have changed their model, so it's removed.
    - kstrauser 5mo ago
      Forklift only sells you a year of updates at a time now.
      - bayindirh 5mo ago
        Yeah, you're right. I remembered it now. However, they have stopped doing "major" releases at the same time, too. Let me update the comment.
    - tpmoney 5mo ago
      I’m a big fan of JetBrains model for this. Buy the software on a subscription, and the subscription gets cheaper for the first 3 annual renewals. While you’re subscribed you get access to the most current version and when you stop subscribing you have a lifetime license for the latest major version (and it’s patches) that you’ve paid for at least a year of. The subscription helps fund the continuous development that is expected of modern software but you still get to keep something for having invested that money when you’re done.
  - _carbyau_ 5mo ago
    ^^ This. ^^ Choices! As a customer, so many frustrating things boil down to not being given a choice. Not even having a tickbox to express which way you'd like it even if the default is otherwise.
- nofunsir 5mo ago
  You're making this up to justify subscription model guilt. Nobody (besides those on here) EXPECTS this. In fact, most would rather live with the risks than deal with subscription model, let alone the headaches of updating and it breaking everything (i.e. causing a chain reaction that you have to update EVERYTHING in order to fix a small non-issue). I, in fact, do NOT want continuous maintenance. Ever. I will literally never turn on auto-updates for the rest of my life.
  - iknowstuff 5mo ago
    I think you’re in the minority. There are products out there that suit you. They are not mainstream products.
    - MiddleEndian 5mo ago
      Mainstream behavior doesn't necessarily mean what people want. Many try and fail to stop Windows updates, for instance. I would guess that the majority of the users of the TicketMaster app would rather not use it.
      - iknowstuff 5mo ago
        Hmmm I can’t think of a subscription app that truly doesn’t have a free/upfront/unupgraded alternative - its just that usually they come with quality issues or poor support, so people choose the better, subscription-based, auto-updating ones.
        coldtea 5mo ago
        I can think of plenty of apps that have perfectly fine non-subscription options, and then turned subscription only. People use them because the products were good or industry standard. They don't prefer them because subscriptions somehow magically enabled them to be better. They already preferred them over alternatives before subscriptions. If anything, people often complain that they got shittier after the subscription was introduced, once many are onboard and captive. And people use their subscription versions because a non-subscription version is not made available anymore. The real comparison of what users prefer wouldn't be "X subscription software vs Y non-subscription". It would be "X subscription or X non-subscription".
- prmoustache 5mo ago
  One should be able to write a text editor without security vulnerabilities.
- gofreddygo 5mo ago
  Software today is worse in every possible way. Subscription solicitation is one such dimension. BBEdit, Sublime et al. are beacons of what software quality, distribution and pricing ought to be. three quarters of the saas industry is built around such made-up needs. Not much to be proud of there with a handful of exceptions. as for price, it feels 100% fair to bleed your enterprise customers to subsidize individual customers.
  - asyncze 5mo ago
    [dead]
bellowsgulch 5mo ago
I would rather software companies sell at more realistic prices so that they have a sustainable business, and signal to others in the industry that it's still possible to build a sustainable business. No, we should not praise software companies for hobbyist practices like selling $1 app on the App Store, which say, 30% goes to a digital distribution store, and then of your after distribution fees, about 20%+ percent goes to the federal and local government. Pay for updates, and charge rightfully like you're supporting an engineer's salary, and that you have a commercial real estate lease to pay, and the compensation packages of full-time employees with benefits. And boo people who say otherwise. No other professional field do I know of exists where cheap bastards abound while the entire industry is dependent on monopolies to pay the high wages of engineers.
- kennywinker 5mo ago
  Implying that one of the oldest still actively developed commercial text editors is not doing sustainable business practices kinda misses the mark. They’ve been at this since 1992, 34 years ago. I think they know their business.
  - bellowsgulch 5mo ago
    Yeah, I think I know their business, too. Remember 12 years ago when BBEdit left the Mac App Store only later to come back with subscriptions? Boo. [1]: https://x.com/smorr/status/521033038713880576 https://x.com/smorr/status/521033038713880576 [2]: https://www.barebones.com/company/press/bbedit_back_to_mas_pr.html https://www.barebones.com/company/press/bbedit_back_to_mas_p...
    - kstrauser 5mo ago
      Eh. I think that was a fine thing to offer for people who wanted it. You can still buy a perpetual license for the full version from their website.
    - kennywinker 5mo ago
      The app store doesn’t allow for any kind of upgrade pricing, so offering a subscription allows them to operate in the app store sustainably. A shitty compromise, but i don’t blame them for making. 12 years later you can still buy without subscribing - which is what counts for me
vl 5mo ago
And amazingly free version is very usable as well. It’s same BBEdit package, and without license it doesn’t activate extra features, which I don’t need anyway. They used to ship it as free separate editor TextWrangler and now rolled it in into main BBEdit instead.
NSUserDefaults 5mo ago
The landscape has changed significantly. In 2007, OS X itself (10.5 Leopard) cost $129.
01100011 5mo ago
I wish SlickEdit would take the hint...
account42 5mo ago
It's only natural for products where the marginal cost to produce is zero to get cheaper as the market expands.

factorialboy 5mo ago

The pie (market) has also vastly expanded since 1998. Need to factor that, and not just inflation.

sedatk 5mo ago
Proportionally, competition has vastly expanded too.
kennywinker 5mo ago
I assumed that was implied pretty heavily by what I said. Either they were overcharging in 1998, or the market got bigger.

pokstad 5mo ago

The software world is different today. People expect you to release security updates as vulnerabilities are discovered. They expect you to fix your application so that it works on the newest macOS that deprecated and broke the old APIs you used (or switch architectures). We expect continuous maintenance for a fixed price. I wish Textmate had a yearly charge to keep their team running instead of the one time purchase that starved them.

hgs3 5mo ago
I think there is one major difference that separates the two eras: in ye olden days you bought software for a fixed price and while it's understood you might only receive updates for a limited time, you could continue using it so long as you had the ability to run it. For example, you didn't have to upgrade to Windows XP if you were satisfied with Windows 98. With subscriptions, it's a recurring fee to continue accessing the software at all.
- pokstad 5mo ago
  Windows sells more copies of its software the OEM route. Also, they sell specific versions that eventually end support. Today you might consider Windows almost a loss leader since Microsoft is diversified with many services on top of windows.
  - simjnd 5mo ago
    It ignores the point. If I've bought BBEdit 13 for 60 USD three years ago and I'm still happy with it, I can keep using it for the rest of my life without paying more. If I want the new features, then I can pay 40 USD to get the latest version. This is a sane AND a sustainable model for companies, and actually creates MORE incentives for the developers to align with the user's interest: if the new update sucks and has features no one asked for, then nobody will pay for the new version and keep the old one. There is no reason why previous versions of the software you paid a license for should effectively "disappear".
    - simondotau 5mo ago
      I’m a fan of the subscription model where if you stop paying, you continue to have a license for the last version you got during the subscription. I’ve appreciated that in a few apps where my need for them on a daily basis evaporated but I still need to briefly touch that system once every few months.
jms703 5mo ago
Yep. Give people two choices. 1) Purchase a major version and get no updates. 2) Purchase a subscription and get constant updates.
- bayindirh 5mo ago
  Or use "The Dutch Model": Pay for the major version, get all of its updates. Then pay for update (to next major plus its updates) with a discount. If you don't prefer the pay, you can keep what you have. This is what Reaper, Forklift, CameraBag and countless others do, and it works very well. Edit: This comment contained Forklift as an example before, but they have changed their model, so it's removed.
  - kstrauser 5mo ago
    Forklift only sells you a year of updates at a time now.
    - bayindirh 5mo ago
      Yeah, you're right. I remembered it now. However, they have stopped doing "major" releases at the same time, too. Let me update the comment.
  - tpmoney 5mo ago
    I’m a big fan of JetBrains model for this. Buy the software on a subscription, and the subscription gets cheaper for the first 3 annual renewals. While you’re subscribed you get access to the most current version and when you stop subscribing you have a lifetime license for the latest major version (and it’s patches) that you’ve paid for at least a year of. The subscription helps fund the continuous development that is expected of modern software but you still get to keep something for having invested that money when you’re done.
- _carbyau_ 5mo ago
  ^^ This. ^^ Choices! As a customer, so many frustrating things boil down to not being given a choice. Not even having a tickbox to express which way you'd like it even if the default is otherwise.
nofunsir 5mo ago
You're making this up to justify subscription model guilt. Nobody (besides those on here) EXPECTS this. In fact, most would rather live with the risks than deal with subscription model, let alone the headaches of updating and it breaking everything (i.e. causing a chain reaction that you have to update EVERYTHING in order to fix a small non-issue). I, in fact, do NOT want continuous maintenance. Ever. I will literally never turn on auto-updates for the rest of my life.
- iknowstuff 5mo ago
  I think you’re in the minority. There are products out there that suit you. They are not mainstream products.
  - MiddleEndian 5mo ago
    Mainstream behavior doesn't necessarily mean what people want. Many try and fail to stop Windows updates, for instance. I would guess that the majority of the users of the TicketMaster app would rather not use it.
    - iknowstuff 5mo ago
      Hmmm I can’t think of a subscription app that truly doesn’t have a free/upfront/unupgraded alternative - its just that usually they come with quality issues or poor support, so people choose the better, subscription-based, auto-updating ones.
      - coldtea 5mo ago
        I can think of plenty of apps that have perfectly fine non-subscription options, and then turned subscription only. People use them because the products were good or industry standard. They don't prefer them because subscriptions somehow magically enabled them to be better. They already preferred them over alternatives before subscriptions. If anything, people often complain that they got shittier after the subscription was introduced, once many are onboard and captive. And people use their subscription versions because a non-subscription version is not made available anymore. The real comparison of what users prefer wouldn't be "X subscription software vs Y non-subscription". It would be "X subscription or X non-subscription".
prmoustache 5mo ago
One should be able to write a text editor without security vulnerabilities.
gofreddygo 5mo ago
Software today is worse in every possible way. Subscription solicitation is one such dimension. BBEdit, Sublime et al. are beacons of what software quality, distribution and pricing ought to be. three quarters of the saas industry is built around such made-up needs. Not much to be proud of there with a handful of exceptions. as for price, it feels 100% fair to bleed your enterprise customers to subsidize individual customers.
- asyncze 5mo ago
  [dead]

bellowsgulch 5mo ago

I would rather software companies sell at more realistic prices so that they have a sustainable business, and signal to others in the industry that it's still possible to build a sustainable business. No, we should not praise software companies for hobbyist practices like selling $1 app on the App Store, which say, 30% goes to a digital distribution store, and then of your after distribution fees, about 20%+ percent goes to the federal and local government. Pay for updates, and charge rightfully like you're supporting an engineer's salary, and that you have a commercial real estate lease to pay, and the compensation packages of full-time employees with benefits. And boo people who say otherwise. No other professional field do I know of exists where cheap bastards abound while the entire industry is dependent on monopolies to pay the high wages of engineers.

kennywinker 5mo ago
Implying that one of the oldest still actively developed commercial text editors is not doing sustainable business practices kinda misses the mark. They’ve been at this since 1992, 34 years ago. I think they know their business.
- bellowsgulch 5mo ago
  Yeah, I think I know their business, too. Remember 12 years ago when BBEdit left the Mac App Store only later to come back with subscriptions? Boo. [1]: https://x.com/smorr/status/521033038713880576 https://x.com/smorr/status/521033038713880576 [2]: https://www.barebones.com/company/press/bbedit_back_to_mas_pr.html https://www.barebones.com/company/press/bbedit_back_to_mas_p...
  - kstrauser 5mo ago
    Eh. I think that was a fine thing to offer for people who wanted it. You can still buy a perpetual license for the full version from their website.
  - kennywinker 5mo ago
    The app store doesn’t allow for any kind of upgrade pricing, so offering a subscription allows them to operate in the app store sustainably. A shitty compromise, but i don’t blame them for making. 12 years later you can still buy without subscribing - which is what counts for me

vl 5mo ago

And amazingly free version is very usable as well. It’s same BBEdit package, and without license it doesn’t activate extra features, which I don’t need anyway. They used to ship it as free separate editor TextWrangler and now rolled it in into main BBEdit instead.

NSUserDefaults 5mo ago

The landscape has changed significantly. In 2007, OS X itself (10.5 Leopard) cost $129.

01100011 5mo ago

I wish SlickEdit would take the hint...

account42 5mo ago

It's only natural for products where the marginal cost to produce is zero to get cheaper as the market expands.