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That is a tricky issue and comes down to financing riskier innovation. It is worth remembering that GNU originally existed as a way to clone a non free system i

by jiggy2011 14y ago

That is a tricky issue and comes down to financing riskier innovation. It is worth remembering that GNU originally existed as a way to clone a non free system in a way that made it free. A lot of open source development is also done or funded by corporations to help build commoditize the parts they need in order to create platforms for software and media that are in many cases fairly walled garden. Stallman and the like may have produced fine C compilers and text editors but it would seem unlikely for them to come up with something like the iPhone.

meaty 14y ago
I think you overestimate the importance of the smartphone. A free smartphone is still tied to a non free network and to be honest, isn't required for humanity to function. It's an accessory, not a necessity. If they disappeared overnight, the world would still turn. The same is not true for the text editor and compiler.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  The same could be said about most pieces of technology. If emacs disappeared tomorrow the HN server would probably be crushed under the weight of angsty developers but stuff would still keep happening. It's not like GNU developed the first C compiler or text editor either, Stallman seems to believe the priority should be on developing free alternatives to things that have already been made (i.e the risk taken) by a proprietary company. This is reflected in the FSF "high priority" list: http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/ http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/ If you want a Star Trek future you need to develop all the little pieces of technology that are required incrementally.
- schiffern 14y ago
  >A free smartphone is still tied to a non free network You know what else is a non-free network? The entire internet. Clearly humanity would still turn if computers didn't exist at all, but I would argue that the internet has been directly responsible for more social change than the text editor and the compiler. If you want to trivially argue that the text editor and compiler are prerequisites for the internet, then I would point out that James Maxwell should deserve far more credit than either Steve Jobs or Richard Stallman. >The same is not true for the text editor and compiler. Now I know you're joking.
  - vacri 14y ago
    Given that the internet is dependent on the text editor and the compiler, you can't separate them like that.
    - schiffern 14y ago
      Sure you can. In fact, I preemptively responded to that argument in my post. >>If you want to trivially argue that the text editor and compiler are prerequisites for the internet, then I would point out that James Maxwell should deserve far more credit than either Steve Jobs or Richard Stallman. More importantly, I don't think that's what meaty was saying, since that statement is so trivial that it's meaningless. C'mon, give him a little credit!
      - vacri 14y ago
        I don't think it's that trivial an argument - firmware is being constantly modified to help the internet expand and secure itself, and software is in the same boat; the same cannot be said of Maxwell's work. While Maxwell was foundational, it's hardly in the state of flux that code is in.
laumars 14y ago
"Stallman and the like may have produced fine C compilers and text editors but it would seem unlikely for them to come up with something like the iPhone." Actually they did, it was called 'Openmoko' and it was released before the iPhone (albeit there wasn't much between the two). It wasn't just an open source smart phone OS, but also open hardware as well. Sadly it never took off: partly because iOS (and later, Android) were busy reshaping the mobile landscape; and partly because corporations started adopting Linux for mobile OSs which dragged many of the hacker crowd away from independent set ups. As to whether Openmoko would have succeeded if it was conceived a couple of years earlier; or whether it such a project was too ambitious without corporate backing, i don't know. But for a while there was an a community driven smart phone available to buy.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I googled that and one of the first results was "OpenMoko Train Wreck", a video showing how clunky the phone was and how poor the UI is (teeny tiny software keyboard etc). Looked more like a replacement to early versions of Windows mobile. I suppose the question is why is this, is it just that the folks who are driven to open source development don't have a sense for aesthetics and convenient UIs?
  - meaty 14y ago
    Yes this is true, but to be 100% honest, it wasn't finished. If you remember very early Android prototypes, they were in about the same place.
  - bct 14y ago
    It's a matter of resources. It was a very ambitious project, and they didn't have the funding behind it that Apple and Google do.
  - sherjilozair 14y ago
    > I suppose the question is why is this, is it just that the folks who are driven to open source development don't have a sense for aesthetics and convenient UIs? No. They do have a sense of aesthetics and convenient UIs. Ubuntu is an example. Open Source follows the trial-and-error iterative approach. If the project has enough momentum, the end is bound to be near-perfect, having gone through so many iterations and decisions by the users itself. However, the problem with Open Source + Hardware is that hardware is too slow and unnatural for iterative development.
ippisl 14y ago
Currently , there's some open source research into neglected diseases. This is certainly a high risk project. I hope it succeeds. I could imagine open source would work well for non-profits, some of them doing high risk projects(like the green revolution, or gates's work). It's also possible it would work well for university research(maybe with some change of universities operation models). Open source is relatively new. Maybe it will take time to see what kind of high risk projects it's good for.

meaty 14y ago

I think you overestimate the importance of the smartphone. A free smartphone is still tied to a non free network and to be honest, isn't required for humanity to function. It's an accessory, not a necessity. If they disappeared overnight, the world would still turn. The same is not true for the text editor and compiler.

jiggy2011 14y ago
The same could be said about most pieces of technology. If emacs disappeared tomorrow the HN server would probably be crushed under the weight of angsty developers but stuff would still keep happening. It's not like GNU developed the first C compiler or text editor either, Stallman seems to believe the priority should be on developing free alternatives to things that have already been made (i.e the risk taken) by a proprietary company. This is reflected in the FSF "high priority" list: http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/ http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/ If you want a Star Trek future you need to develop all the little pieces of technology that are required incrementally.
schiffern 14y ago
>A free smartphone is still tied to a non free network You know what else is a non-free network? The entire internet. Clearly humanity would still turn if computers didn't exist at all, but I would argue that the internet has been directly responsible for more social change than the text editor and the compiler. If you want to trivially argue that the text editor and compiler are prerequisites for the internet, then I would point out that James Maxwell should deserve far more credit than either Steve Jobs or Richard Stallman. >The same is not true for the text editor and compiler. Now I know you're joking.
- vacri 14y ago
  Given that the internet is dependent on the text editor and the compiler, you can't separate them like that.
  - schiffern 14y ago
    Sure you can. In fact, I preemptively responded to that argument in my post. >>If you want to trivially argue that the text editor and compiler are prerequisites for the internet, then I would point out that James Maxwell should deserve far more credit than either Steve Jobs or Richard Stallman. More importantly, I don't think that's what meaty was saying, since that statement is so trivial that it's meaningless. C'mon, give him a little credit!
    - vacri 14y ago
      I don't think it's that trivial an argument - firmware is being constantly modified to help the internet expand and secure itself, and software is in the same boat; the same cannot be said of Maxwell's work. While Maxwell was foundational, it's hardly in the state of flux that code is in.

laumars 14y ago

"Stallman and the like may have produced fine C compilers and text editors but it would seem unlikely for them to come up with something like the iPhone." Actually they did, it was called 'Openmoko' and it was released before the iPhone (albeit there wasn't much between the two). It wasn't just an open source smart phone OS, but also open hardware as well. Sadly it never took off: partly because iOS (and later, Android) were busy reshaping the mobile landscape; and partly because corporations started adopting Linux for mobile OSs which dragged many of the hacker crowd away from independent set ups. As to whether Openmoko would have succeeded if it was conceived a couple of years earlier; or whether it such a project was too ambitious without corporate backing, i don't know. But for a while there was an a community driven smart phone available to buy.

jiggy2011 14y ago
I googled that and one of the first results was "OpenMoko Train Wreck", a video showing how clunky the phone was and how poor the UI is (teeny tiny software keyboard etc). Looked more like a replacement to early versions of Windows mobile. I suppose the question is why is this, is it just that the folks who are driven to open source development don't have a sense for aesthetics and convenient UIs?
- meaty 14y ago
  Yes this is true, but to be 100% honest, it wasn't finished. If you remember very early Android prototypes, they were in about the same place.
- bct 14y ago
  It's a matter of resources. It was a very ambitious project, and they didn't have the funding behind it that Apple and Google do.
- sherjilozair 14y ago
  > I suppose the question is why is this, is it just that the folks who are driven to open source development don't have a sense for aesthetics and convenient UIs? No. They do have a sense of aesthetics and convenient UIs. Ubuntu is an example. Open Source follows the trial-and-error iterative approach. If the project has enough momentum, the end is bound to be near-perfect, having gone through so many iterations and decisions by the users itself. However, the problem with Open Source + Hardware is that hardware is too slow and unnatural for iterative development.

ippisl 14y ago

Currently , there's some open source research into neglected diseases. This is certainly a high risk project. I hope it succeeds. I could imagine open source would work well for non-profits, some of them doing high risk projects(like the green revolution, or gates's work). It's also possible it would work well for university research(maybe with some change of universities operation models). Open source is relatively new. Maybe it will take time to see what kind of high risk projects it's good for.