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1) The situation you described would be covered under the contract between Anthropic and xAI, and that any violation of that would be subject to financial penal
by tristanj 5mo ago
1) The situation you described would be covered under the contract between Anthropic and xAI, and that any violation of that would be subject to financial penalties and legal proceedings. The US has a robust corporate legal system, and disputes do get resolved through the court system, although in a slow and costly manner.
The contract can stipulate a penalty at a high enough amount to discourage this behavior.
2) Output from models & intra-datacenter communications can be encrypted if customers truly cared.
3) There is no reason do this, because there are far better ways to exfiltrate data from Anthropic models. Chinese companies are already doing this at an industrial scale where they are reselling Claude tokens for 10-20% of the cost while retaining the data to train their own models. https://www.chinatalk.media/p/how-to-buy-cheap-claude-tokens-in https://www.chinatalk.media/p/how-to-buy-cheap-claude-tokens...
If we look at Deepseek V4-pro, created by Deepseek who Anthropic formally accused of harvesting Claude tokens at scale, it performs the same as Claude did 6 months prior.
- seydor 5mo agoI guess there's a reason why those Chinese companies are in china
- overfeed 5mo agoUnder US law, LLM outputs are not under copyright. Even if those companies were under the American jurisdiction[1], the worst thing they would be guilty of is a breach of ToS. 1. OpenRouter is based in New York, and offers a 1% discount when users enable logging of their inputs/outputs; it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they might incentivize that
- 47282847 5mo ago> The US has a robust corporate legal system Thanks for the chuckle. ;)
- rafram 5mo agoIt does, though.
- pyrale 5mo agoIt does until you're embedded enough with the surveillance system [1]. If a company was able to get immunity in the wat AT&T got it, no contract would protect the other side. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepting_v._AT%26T https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepting_v._AT%26T
- tristanj 5mo agoThat case has nothing to do with contract law.
- whattheheckheck 5mo agoAnd the govt protects its citizens and God is real
- 47282847 5mo agoYeah. Well. I guess as a European I want the legal system to be robust in terms of protecting the citizen’s interests against corporations. I can see how you can also want robustness in terms of protecting corporate interests against citizens, so, yes, the statement remains technically true in terms of robustness. In terms of justice, again as a European, I think of Justitia, the Roman Godess, who judges based on “ideals of truth, fairness, honesty and justice“, “applied without regard to wealth, power, or other status”, evaluating “the goodness of the heart”. I don’t see these values represented much in the US so-called “justice” system. Both aspects sufficiently documented for example over and over again in Matt Levine’s financial reporting.
- rafram 5mo agoNone of those have anything to do with robustness.
- tristanj 5mo agoIt's an accurate statement. The US (specifically Delaware) has a world-class corporate law system. Delaware has a court dedicated to only corporate and commercial disputes, with 200+ years of case law.
- lovich 5mo agoMan, good thing no one’s ever done something like reincorporate Tesla and SpaceX in Texas after loosing a court case in said Delaware court and having a pissy fit about it.
- voxic11 5mo agoThe state of incorporation doesn't often matter in interstate contracts. Usually they will include a choice of law and forum selection clause specifically to avoid this kind of thing.
- viking123 5mo agoI hope the Chinese keep harvesting Claude etc. since they stole all their data anyway, who cares?
- stingraycharles 5mo ago> There is no reason do this, because there are far better ways to exfiltrate data from Anthropic models. Chinese companies are already doing this at an industrial scale where they are reselling Claude tokens for 10-20% of the cost while retaining the data to train their own models. I think you missed the part where Anthropic stopped displaying their thinking tokens over the past few months, and instead now provides “summarized thinking”, letting Haiku summarize Opus’ thoughts. So it is now much more difficult (impossible?) to distill the models. I also think you over-estimate how well the legal systems works in the US nowadays, and under-estimate just how much power Elon has in the government.
- rfoo 5mo agoAt this scale thinking tokens don't matter anymore. In Feb Anthropic called out three Chinese labs for "distillation attacks", but a lab missing in their post actually had most Claude generated tokens among all Chinese labs in their midtrain data :p
- surgical_fire 5mo agoIncidentally, Claude started the "Summarized Thinking" bullshit around a year ago. Deepseek kept its pace of improvement nonetheless.