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1. "[...] you likely would not be on this forum right now if not for him [...]" Yes sure. Without Apple there would be no desktop PC or internet "forum" users.

1. "[...] you likely would not be on this forum right now if not for him [...]" Yes sure. Without Apple there would be no desktop PC or internet "forum" users. a. I've used News/Usenet accessed on a VAX quite heavily b. The Altair 8800 never happened 2. "[..] all the meaning is there in plain sight, no hidden agendas." A very bold claim without any facts that substantiate it. 3. "[...] even a sense of naivety is quite rare [...]" Naivety might be cute but it's not a value in it's own like you make it sound. [edit] More downvotes please. Fits our industry with booing of people that demand facts and upvotes for people with strong opinions with no ground in reality.

jacquesm 14y ago
The VAX was not exactly a personal computer. I've read quite a bit about and from Steve Wozniak and I've yet to see him exhibit a hidden agenda. He's just as likely to say stuff against his own financial interests as for them. I don't think he speaks for Apple in any official capacity. If you think that he has a hidden agenda I think it is up to you to prove that he does or to come up with an example where that would be evident. Naivety is not 'cute', it means to me that someone is not out to play me, to say words to please me or to further his own interests. There is a lot off value in there because it means that you can probably believe what they say, whereas words from people that have an agenda and are actively working to twist reality by using words that generate a feeling of trust in the listener need a lot more scrutiny, assuming they have value at all.
- Uchikoma 14y ago
  Wikipedia on Naivety "Naivety (or naïvety, naïveté, etc.), is the state of being naive—having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication, often in a context where one neglects pragmatism in favor of moral idealism." Naivety does not exclude hidden agendas, cunning or anything else. Your definition of naivety to me seems no the common consensus.
- Uchikoma 14y ago
  1. I didn't say the VAX was a personal computer, I've countered your claim that without Steve Wozniak people (me) would not be on a forum talking about these topics. As many people accessed "forums" on the internet without a desktop, I don't see your argument holds true. 2. If the agenda was hidden you probably would not know it. I would call a public agenda not hidden. "If you think that he has a hidden agenda." You have to show he has no hidden agenda (should be hard, see aboce) as you have claimed he has none, not me having to show there is one.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    The forum we are talking on exists by the virtue of the fact that millions of people now have computing devices, and that trend had a couple of breakthrough moments, specifically, the 4004, the 8008, the 6502, the KIM-1, the Apple I (and later the II), the TRS-80, and after that a cambrian explosion of computer brands and models culminating in the PC standard and everything that followed from there. A computer with a built-in glass TTY / memory mapped display and a dedicated keyboard was a game changer. Likely that revolution would have happened eventually but I'm fairly sure (having been there and having used / played with most of the above, if not outright owned them) that the Apple I was a catalyst. Hidden agendas can be inferred because people say stuff that makes no sense until you realize that they are gaining through some other channel than the one they are communicating on / about. So if a guy tells you that you should go and deal with a specific bank and makes a real effort to hook you up you can infer that there may be a hidden agenda there. If he does not care which bank you deal with that would count as proof that he likely does not have a hidden agenda. You can't be sure unless he tells you or until you find evidence. I'm saying that you'll find it hard to find anything that you could pin on Wozniak that he would say because he gains from those words in an indirect manner at your expense. I'm the last person on the planet to defend Apple and their products, I think they are just as bad or even worse than Microsoft and I wished they'd see the light and quit trying to push us back into some kind of locked-in new world of computing. But I'm not going to deny the effect they've had on personal computing and how much I respect Steve Wozniak for his contributions and lack of guile.
micampe 14y ago
> [edit] More downvotes please. Fits our industry with booing of people that demand facts and upvotes for people with strong opinions with no ground in reality. The content of your comment is true. The tone is profoundly irritating. Nothing to do with facts or opinions.

jacquesm 14y ago

The VAX was not exactly a personal computer. I've read quite a bit about and from Steve Wozniak and I've yet to see him exhibit a hidden agenda. He's just as likely to say stuff against his own financial interests as for them. I don't think he speaks for Apple in any official capacity. If you think that he has a hidden agenda I think it is up to you to prove that he does or to come up with an example where that would be evident. Naivety is not 'cute', it means to me that someone is not out to play me, to say words to please me or to further his own interests. There is a lot off value in there because it means that you can probably believe what they say, whereas words from people that have an agenda and are actively working to twist reality by using words that generate a feeling of trust in the listener need a lot more scrutiny, assuming they have value at all.

Uchikoma 14y ago
Wikipedia on Naivety "Naivety (or naïvety, naïveté, etc.), is the state of being naive—having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication, often in a context where one neglects pragmatism in favor of moral idealism." Naivety does not exclude hidden agendas, cunning or anything else. Your definition of naivety to me seems no the common consensus.
Uchikoma 14y ago
1. I didn't say the VAX was a personal computer, I've countered your claim that without Steve Wozniak people (me) would not be on a forum talking about these topics. As many people accessed "forums" on the internet without a desktop, I don't see your argument holds true. 2. If the agenda was hidden you probably would not know it. I would call a public agenda not hidden. "If you think that he has a hidden agenda." You have to show he has no hidden agenda (should be hard, see aboce) as you have claimed he has none, not me having to show there is one.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  The forum we are talking on exists by the virtue of the fact that millions of people now have computing devices, and that trend had a couple of breakthrough moments, specifically, the 4004, the 8008, the 6502, the KIM-1, the Apple I (and later the II), the TRS-80, and after that a cambrian explosion of computer brands and models culminating in the PC standard and everything that followed from there. A computer with a built-in glass TTY / memory mapped display and a dedicated keyboard was a game changer. Likely that revolution would have happened eventually but I'm fairly sure (having been there and having used / played with most of the above, if not outright owned them) that the Apple I was a catalyst. Hidden agendas can be inferred because people say stuff that makes no sense until you realize that they are gaining through some other channel than the one they are communicating on / about. So if a guy tells you that you should go and deal with a specific bank and makes a real effort to hook you up you can infer that there may be a hidden agenda there. If he does not care which bank you deal with that would count as proof that he likely does not have a hidden agenda. You can't be sure unless he tells you or until you find evidence. I'm saying that you'll find it hard to find anything that you could pin on Wozniak that he would say because he gains from those words in an indirect manner at your expense. I'm the last person on the planet to defend Apple and their products, I think they are just as bad or even worse than Microsoft and I wished they'd see the light and quit trying to push us back into some kind of locked-in new world of computing. But I'm not going to deny the effect they've had on personal computing and how much I respect Steve Wozniak for his contributions and lack of guile.

micampe 14y ago

> [edit] More downvotes please. Fits our industry with booing of people that demand facts and upvotes for people with strong opinions with no ground in reality. The content of your comment is true. The tone is profoundly irritating. Nothing to do with facts or opinions.