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I think Cathedral is closer to death metal structure in my personal view compared to classic Black Sabbath, so that should not be too surprising. My test is sim

I think Cathedral is closer to death metal structure in my personal view compared to classic Black Sabbath, so that should not be too surprising. My test is simple, the history of thrash itself shows a lot of it coming from combining hardcore punk influence directly to metal, a lot of old thrash feels to me having mild to overt hardcore sections or riffs at points. And I think that's the aspect that gives thrash its political themes and more direct lyrics compared to the more fantasy or generic bragging style of older metal.

YeGoblynQueenne 5mo ago
That's the theory I know, too, but there are counter-examples. Quorthon for one always maintained that his influences were rock and glam. He may well have been taking the piss, but while most people insist he ripped-off Venom, his early stuff (Bathory, The Return, Under the Sign Of the Black mark) sounds nothing like Venom, it's just the titles, and the lyrics that are clearly ripped off. But Bathory is Black, so a bit by-the-by. Venom (whom I count as an early thrash band; they have nothing to do with Black Metal except for that one song title), seem to have been more influenced by Motörhead, Motörhead, Motörhead, and Judas Priest. I believe Venom were a major influence for all European Thrash bands. Speaking of Motörhead, they were also a major influence to at least Sodom and possibly other early Thrash bands too. So I personally think Motörhead are a more likely Thrash influence than hardcore. Then again Metallica do have their Garage Days Revisited album which is probably a good catalogue of their influences. Maybe. Tbh I don't hear Sabbath in Metallica. And I've listened to oodles of both religiously as a teenager. Back to European Thrash, Kreator and Destruction that I also listened to as a teenager, don't sound very hardcore-influenced at all. They are just harder, dirtier, Speed Metal bands with more violent lyrics. Come to think of it, maybe there is an American vs. European Thrash divide. American bands more influenced by hardcore, and/like Metallica; European bands more influenced by Speed Metal. And Motörhead. Honestly. A lot of European Thrash sounds to me like Motörhead. For example: https://youtu.be/-qmbiw38o2I?si=z35EZG1X07p4uUe5 https://youtu.be/-qmbiw38o2I?si=z35EZG1X07p4uUe5 But, well, that's a bit on the nose.
- hardbass 5mo ago
  We could trade examples all day of course, here are some of mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8C3Tez3iAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8C3Tez3iAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa5p0FVhko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa5p0FVhko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphUURIAx5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphUURIAx5g and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is. In the branch of thrash or partition perhaps that I gave the distinction is clear: hardcore of some sort or scene as the influence. For German thrash, I can see clearly there is a difference, as Sodom and Kreator in their early era feels like black/death metal structurally so it isn't just sped up Motorhead. While a lot of Metallica sounds like thrash, there is an element of rock music to Metallica's sound. Your example with that Sodom song is a good one. In my view a band that considered itself thrash when doing the "odd one out" song for an album, would never write something like For whom the bell tolls, they'd do a Discharge cover instead or a east coast hc style short song. Perhaps its my finding rock music grating that biases me to leaning toward some of Metallica's work not being thrash. For German, we can see it by asking what is the difference between Rage or Angel Dust and Kreator/Destruction (here of course even Rage and Angel Dust are already absent of any rock feeling even though they are supposed to be the older so called "speed metal" style). In both my examples and much of German thrash I think for me, if I look back and see, I think its that whatever path they took the rock aspects have completely gone from them by that time.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 5mo ago
    Yeah, you catch me out here, I think I know Violence and I obviously know Anthrax but the rest I'll have to listen to a bit to see what you mean. But I do see what you mean in many places, e.g. the structural similarity of Sodom and Kreator with early Black. Including Bathory again! It isn't just sped up Motorhead, and the Sodom track is indeed a bit out of the ordinary, but they're still a big influence I think. I don't know if I agree Metallica have a rock element. Hmm. Can you point to a track more specifically where you hear that? I can't think of any. Unless it's in the Black Album or later? >> I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is. Well, yes, and then, maybe it's a bit of an affectation. It's only something you do once you've listened to a bit more metal than the ordinary person (which is not much: AC/DC, Metallica, maybe Slayer, end of). I of course had endless debates with my friends as a teenager and I may or may not have written angry letters to the editors of the only Greek language Metal magazine when I was growing up (and I think the only one still?) to protest the clandestine placing of a band in the absolutely wrong category in this or that article of theirs. Maybe kids these days will get over that sort of thing. Maybe not. It's all good. >> and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o Yeah without even listening to that I can tell it's cheating XD

YeGoblynQueenne 5mo ago

That's the theory I know, too, but there are counter-examples. Quorthon for one always maintained that his influences were rock and glam. He may well have been taking the piss, but while most people insist he ripped-off Venom, his early stuff (Bathory, The Return, Under the Sign Of the Black mark) sounds nothing like Venom, it's just the titles, and the lyrics that are clearly ripped off. But Bathory is Black, so a bit by-the-by. Venom (whom I count as an early thrash band; they have nothing to do with Black Metal except for that one song title), seem to have been more influenced by Motörhead, Motörhead, Motörhead, and Judas Priest. I believe Venom were a major influence for all European Thrash bands. Speaking of Motörhead, they were also a major influence to at least Sodom and possibly other early Thrash bands too. So I personally think Motörhead are a more likely Thrash influence than hardcore. Then again Metallica do have their Garage Days Revisited album which is probably a good catalogue of their influences. Maybe. Tbh I don't hear Sabbath in Metallica. And I've listened to oodles of both religiously as a teenager. Back to European Thrash, Kreator and Destruction that I also listened to as a teenager, don't sound very hardcore-influenced at all. They are just harder, dirtier, Speed Metal bands with more violent lyrics. Come to think of it, maybe there is an American vs. European Thrash divide. American bands more influenced by hardcore, and/like Metallica; European bands more influenced by Speed Metal. And Motörhead. Honestly. A lot of European Thrash sounds to me like Motörhead. For example: https://youtu.be/-qmbiw38o2I?si=z35EZG1X07p4uUe5 https://youtu.be/-qmbiw38o2I?si=z35EZG1X07p4uUe5 But, well, that's a bit on the nose.

hardbass 5mo ago
We could trade examples all day of course, here are some of mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8C3Tez3iAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8C3Tez3iAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa5p0FVhko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa5p0FVhko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphUURIAx5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphUURIAx5g and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is. In the branch of thrash or partition perhaps that I gave the distinction is clear: hardcore of some sort or scene as the influence. For German thrash, I can see clearly there is a difference, as Sodom and Kreator in their early era feels like black/death metal structurally so it isn't just sped up Motorhead. While a lot of Metallica sounds like thrash, there is an element of rock music to Metallica's sound. Your example with that Sodom song is a good one. In my view a band that considered itself thrash when doing the "odd one out" song for an album, would never write something like For whom the bell tolls, they'd do a Discharge cover instead or a east coast hc style short song. Perhaps its my finding rock music grating that biases me to leaning toward some of Metallica's work not being thrash. For German, we can see it by asking what is the difference between Rage or Angel Dust and Kreator/Destruction (here of course even Rage and Angel Dust are already absent of any rock feeling even though they are supposed to be the older so called "speed metal" style). In both my examples and much of German thrash I think for me, if I look back and see, I think its that whatever path they took the rock aspects have completely gone from them by that time.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5mo ago
  Yeah, you catch me out here, I think I know Violence and I obviously know Anthrax but the rest I'll have to listen to a bit to see what you mean. But I do see what you mean in many places, e.g. the structural similarity of Sodom and Kreator with early Black. Including Bathory again! It isn't just sped up Motorhead, and the Sodom track is indeed a bit out of the ordinary, but they're still a big influence I think. I don't know if I agree Metallica have a rock element. Hmm. Can you point to a track more specifically where you hear that? I can't think of any. Unless it's in the Black Album or later? >> I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is. Well, yes, and then, maybe it's a bit of an affectation. It's only something you do once you've listened to a bit more metal than the ordinary person (which is not much: AC/DC, Metallica, maybe Slayer, end of). I of course had endless debates with my friends as a teenager and I may or may not have written angry letters to the editors of the only Greek language Metal magazine when I was growing up (and I think the only one still?) to protest the clandestine placing of a band in the absolutely wrong category in this or that article of theirs. Maybe kids these days will get over that sort of thing. Maybe not. It's all good. >> and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o Yeah without even listening to that I can tell it's cheating XD