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The comments on this HN post nicely color the problem Tim points out, from the comments that assume the exceptionalism of the USA, to comments that say “stay in

by gortok 5mo ago

The comments on this HN post nicely color the problem Tim points out, from the comments that assume the exceptionalism of the USA, to comments that say “stay in Canada”, to comments that call the post “moral preening”. I grew up in a very conservative household, and until the tea party/Trumpian alliance would have called myself a small-l libertarian. Now? I won’t vote republican for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that it rhymes with the worst parts of the political parties we destroyed in world wars. There’s something new almost every day that should, in a sane culture, cause folks to abandon the Republican Party en masse. Today’s example? The 1.776 Billion “anti-weaponization” fund that is a slush fund for Trump and his allies, including folks that stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021. The grift of this administration is shocking, but the fact that rank-and-file conservatives aren’t abandoning it by the millions gives away the game. It isn’t about principles, it’s about one party winning, no matter what. We used to fight for what’s right, but we have become the villain. Tim is right about the declination of America (realizing his title is a double-entendre), and I can’t help but wonder if there is even a line that Trump could cross to the modern “Republican” party.

ponkyrisen 5mo ago
[flagged]
- Sabinus 5mo ago
  Use your main account. Go on.
HerbManic 5mo ago
I said in another response, Trump has shown the cards to world that there is a sizable portion of the country that can not be trusted. Other nations have realised this is an embedded problem and cannot be fixed with another election. At least not on a long scale.
- alchemism 5mo ago
  Not a dissimilar state of affairs from the 1820s. It took 40 years more for that disagreement to come to a head.
WarOnPrivacy 5mo ago
> I won’t vote republican for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that it rhymes with the worst parts of the political parties we destroyed in world wars. As a former right winger, now recovering conservative, I'm inclined to agree. The greater issue for me is the right became every single thing they accused the left of (being easily hurt, mandated viewpoints, group think). It's all the natural progression of the animosity campaigns Newt Gingrich launched a generation ago. ref: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/where-there-is-a-will/act-one-6 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/where-there-is-a-will/a...
insane_dreamer 5mo ago
Yeah, setting policies and even cultural differences aside, the level of blatant corruption in this administration is simply beyond the pale. In any other western country, this admin would have been gone by now. And there's so much of it that it's almost become the norm. It's shocking that anyone -- no matter their political views -- can continue to support that. We literally went from "drain the swamp" to "fill the swamp" I honestly do not want my kids to grow up in this country. Which is too bad because it has a lot going for it otherwise. I'm actively looking for an exit strategy.
atoav 5mo ago
The one truly astonishing aspect in US politics for my european mind is the degree to which many US voters appear to have given up their agency in favour of party loyalty. Some may think supporting their own party no matter what is a smart move that will let them win, but the only thing it achieves is that the party can now stop representing your interest. One of the few levers you have as a voter is the threat of not voting for a party or even voting against them. By swearing blind loyalty no matter what, you're giving up that single lever you had. The power of a voter isn't to vote people into office, it is to vote them out of it. Trump has seen time and time again that he can promise X and then get away with doing the polar opposite of X, just because Republican representatives and voters think towing the line is more important than everything else. In an actual democracy the politicians are afraid of the voters, not the other way around.
- candu 5mo ago
  As a Canadian / American who now lives in Europe: IMHO the two-party system and current constitutional structure in the US is an unfortunate local maximum. It was very definitely better than the centuries of militaristic monarchic feudalism Europe waded through from medieval times until the mid-1900s. It is very definitely worse than modern pluralistic coalition-based democracies with proportional representation, which offer a wider range of choices to voters, and make it possible to launch competing parties / movements to counter institutional stagnation. Until recently, the one counterargument I would hear to this second assertion is "but coalition governments have a hard time getting anything done". Now that we see a prime example of a government that alternates between a) not getting anything done and b) getting things done that belong somewhere in a timeframe from the 1890s to the 1940s, I no longer hear people making that counterargument. Re: constitutional structure, one Irish friend I have made an interesting point: in his lifetime, there have been many changes and amendments to the Irish constitution. This is next to impossible in the US system, both because of the party loyalty dynamic mentioned above _and_ because of the incredibly high procedural bar to doing so. (And not least because of the current predominance of originalist thinking in the judicial branch, as though the constitution were an infallible document handed down from gods among men, eternally to be interpreted as the Founding Fathers intended back over 200 years ago in a completely different social, political, and technological context.)

by gortok 5mo ago

ponkyrisen 5mo ago

[flagged]

Sabinus 5mo ago
Use your main account. Go on.

HerbManic 5mo ago

I said in another response, Trump has shown the cards to world that there is a sizable portion of the country that can not be trusted. Other nations have realised this is an embedded problem and cannot be fixed with another election. At least not on a long scale.

alchemism 5mo ago
Not a dissimilar state of affairs from the 1820s. It took 40 years more for that disagreement to come to a head.

WarOnPrivacy 5mo ago

> I won’t vote republican for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that it rhymes with the worst parts of the political parties we destroyed in world wars. As a former right winger, now recovering conservative, I'm inclined to agree. The greater issue for me is the right became every single thing they accused the left of (being easily hurt, mandated viewpoints, group think). It's all the natural progression of the animosity campaigns Newt Gingrich launched a generation ago. ref: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/where-there-is-a-will/act-one-6 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/where-there-is-a-will/a...

insane_dreamer 5mo ago

Yeah, setting policies and even cultural differences aside, the level of blatant corruption in this administration is simply beyond the pale. In any other western country, this admin would have been gone by now. And there's so much of it that it's almost become the norm. It's shocking that anyone -- no matter their political views -- can continue to support that. We literally went from "drain the swamp" to "fill the swamp" I honestly do not want my kids to grow up in this country. Which is too bad because it has a lot going for it otherwise. I'm actively looking for an exit strategy.

atoav 5mo ago

The one truly astonishing aspect in US politics for my european mind is the degree to which many US voters appear to have given up their agency in favour of party loyalty. Some may think supporting their own party no matter what is a smart move that will let them win, but the only thing it achieves is that the party can now stop representing your interest. One of the few levers you have as a voter is the threat of not voting for a party or even voting against them. By swearing blind loyalty no matter what, you're giving up that single lever you had. The power of a voter isn't to vote people into office, it is to vote them out of it. Trump has seen time and time again that he can promise X and then get away with doing the polar opposite of X, just because Republican representatives and voters think towing the line is more important than everything else. In an actual democracy the politicians are afraid of the voters, not the other way around.

candu 5mo ago
As a Canadian / American who now lives in Europe: IMHO the two-party system and current constitutional structure in the US is an unfortunate local maximum. It was very definitely better than the centuries of militaristic monarchic feudalism Europe waded through from medieval times until the mid-1900s. It is very definitely worse than modern pluralistic coalition-based democracies with proportional representation, which offer a wider range of choices to voters, and make it possible to launch competing parties / movements to counter institutional stagnation. Until recently, the one counterargument I would hear to this second assertion is "but coalition governments have a hard time getting anything done". Now that we see a prime example of a government that alternates between a) not getting anything done and b) getting things done that belong somewhere in a timeframe from the 1890s to the 1940s, I no longer hear people making that counterargument. Re: constitutional structure, one Irish friend I have made an interesting point: in his lifetime, there have been many changes and amendments to the Irish constitution. This is next to impossible in the US system, both because of the party loyalty dynamic mentioned above _and_ because of the incredibly high procedural bar to doing so. (And not least because of the current predominance of originalist thinking in the judicial branch, as though the constitution were an infallible document handed down from gods among men, eternally to be interpreted as the Founding Fathers intended back over 200 years ago in a completely different social, political, and technological context.)