5 ms·

I guess it comes down to who you would trust more - your own government which you have some control over via elections or some (potentially multinational) corp

I guess it comes down to who you would trust more - your own government which you have some control over via elections or some (potentially multinational) corporation which you have exactly zero control over?

philipallstar 5mo ago
It's the other way around. You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly if they are bad. You have very, very coarse-grained control with the government every few years.
- vrganj 5mo ago
  I've moved countries five times in my life. I still haven't been able to fully get rid of my dependency on Big Tech or the Visa/Mastercard duopoly.
- NalNezumi 5mo ago
  In the context of mastercard and visa being a duopoly and the recent debacle such as certain games being removed from steam because they threatened to not allow stream to use the card payment system, it's a pretty bad take. Not that central bank won't be able to do the same, but it would have to follow laws set by the government rather than law+whatever the card companies decide to.
- ambicapter 5mo ago
  Agree to disagree. Lock-in is a thing that companies design for.
  - philipallstar 5mo ago
    And a government is pre-locked in.
- bildung 5mo ago
  Ok, I choose to not use Visa/Mastercard in the US, and I want to subscribe to some saas. What do I do now? Or do you mean "choice" as in "you can always choose not the breathe or eat"?
  - CobaltFire 5mo ago
    To be pedantic American Express and Discover exist. But I agree with your meaning. We are beholden to some third party no matter how we move in the current situation.
    - Forgeties79 5mo ago
      Amex is regularly rejected by businesses and cannot be your only credit card, so really you maybe have Discover. I also wouldn’t say either of those is particularly better than Visa/Mastercard. They all engage in the same practices more or less
      - SoftTalker 5mo ago
        The only places I've found that refuse AMEX are very small mom and pop operations. And of those, many don't accept cards of any type: cash only.
        Forgeties79 5mo ago
        Fair enough, it's probably not as common as I think and is more of a reputation.
        Balooga 5mo ago
        Costco? [Edit] -- And I've frequented several independent coffee shops that are cashless.
        volkl48 5mo ago
        Costco doesn't even accept Mastercard (credit cards), so they're kind of a unique case here where they intentionally choose to only accept one particular type of credit cards.
- delfinom 5mo ago
  You only have a potential choice until a company buys out all its competitors and surpresses the rest.
- applfanboysbgon 5mo ago
  > You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly if they are bad. There are exactly two companies in the global credit card market and they operate in lockstep, literally coming to agreements to shut down legal businesses together. Visa and MasterCard have absolutely no right to determine who is and isn't allowed to receive payment. Governments have that right, but that doesn't mean they should use it -- if they're abusing that right, people can vote them out. The effectiveness of people voting out harmful politicians is another matter, but that's kind of on the people being bad at voting, not the idea of government altogether, and at any rate you have no vote whatsoever in what MC/Visa do (unless you vote for government to regulate them!).
- deaux 5mo ago
  > You have choice with a company, This is wrong for a large share of the companies that most people deal with on a daily basis. And that share has been steadily increasing every single year.
- somewhatgoated 5mo ago
  Like others said that choice is not really given in this case. Also with the government option it wouldn’t mean that you can’t still use other methods - for example in brasil credit card or cash work just fine, PIX is just one (very convenient) option.
  - throwaway2037 5mo ago
    Do corner stores (small informal convenience stores) in Brasil usually accept PIX? I assume they all cash-only. Also: What is PIX uptake/penetration like in the countryside? China is shocking how fast that countryside wet/farmer's markets started accepting AliPay. Literally, you can buy a kilo of pumpkin (namguo) using nothing but your mobile phone with AliPay, and the old lady running the stand (in a wet market) probably has a 6th grade education. (No hate on that!)
    - snovv_crash 5mo ago
      In Africa they've had this since ~2005 with the Mpesa system. It basically transfers cellphone credits as payment. In certain regions everyone with a dumb phone was hooked up and you could do anything from buy a coconut from a guy on the side of the road to pay your taxi driver to pay at the supermarket.
      - throwaway2037 5mo ago
        Wow, this is a great reply! "In Africa" -> Can you share a few countries? Google tells me that East Africa is the biggest users: Kenya, Tanzania, etc. (No hate on the use of "In Africa here"... as Google tells me it is used in at least 10 different African countries.)
        snovv_crash 5mo ago
        Anywhere that MTN (telecom provider) operates. East and southern Africa mostly.
    - dormento 5mo ago
- surgical_fire 5mo ago
  > You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly Oh yeah? Please enlihhten me, how exactly can I switch providers from the Visa/Mastercard duopoly?
  - vanjoe 5mo ago
    Duopoly is bad. We should work to fix that. A monopoly is worse.
- array_key_first 5mo ago
  Theres a natural tension here, because in order for this to be true you need a diverse market with many competitors. But that is bad usually, because it's extremely inefficient, so it gets optimized out. The monopolies we see are indeed an optimization - the natural climax of a developing market. Consider payments: you do not want to carry around 100 different cards and trinkets just to pay for things in your daily life, right? And for merchants, they do not want to make deals with 100 different companies to accept payments, right? So what's the end result? We see the monopolies in the US economy because our economy is very efficient. It could be even more efficient - consider, for example, how much time and money could be saved if only one phone OS existed. But then of course that's bad for you, the consumer, because then these huge corporations rule your life and can essentially do whatever they want.

philipallstar 5mo ago

It's the other way around. You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly if they are bad. You have very, very coarse-grained control with the government every few years.

vrganj 5mo ago
I've moved countries five times in my life. I still haven't been able to fully get rid of my dependency on Big Tech or the Visa/Mastercard duopoly.
NalNezumi 5mo ago
In the context of mastercard and visa being a duopoly and the recent debacle such as certain games being removed from steam because they threatened to not allow stream to use the card payment system, it's a pretty bad take. Not that central bank won't be able to do the same, but it would have to follow laws set by the government rather than law+whatever the card companies decide to.
ambicapter 5mo ago
Agree to disagree. Lock-in is a thing that companies design for.
- philipallstar 5mo ago
  And a government is pre-locked in.
bildung 5mo ago
Ok, I choose to not use Visa/Mastercard in the US, and I want to subscribe to some saas. What do I do now? Or do you mean "choice" as in "you can always choose not the breathe or eat"?
- CobaltFire 5mo ago
  To be pedantic American Express and Discover exist. But I agree with your meaning. We are beholden to some third party no matter how we move in the current situation.
  - Forgeties79 5mo ago
    Amex is regularly rejected by businesses and cannot be your only credit card, so really you maybe have Discover. I also wouldn’t say either of those is particularly better than Visa/Mastercard. They all engage in the same practices more or less
    - SoftTalker 5mo ago
      The only places I've found that refuse AMEX are very small mom and pop operations. And of those, many don't accept cards of any type: cash only.
      - Forgeties79 5mo ago
        Fair enough, it's probably not as common as I think and is more of a reputation.
      - Balooga 5mo ago
        Costco? [Edit] -- And I've frequented several independent coffee shops that are cashless.
        volkl48 5mo ago
        Costco doesn't even accept Mastercard (credit cards), so they're kind of a unique case here where they intentionally choose to only accept one particular type of credit cards.
delfinom 5mo ago
You only have a potential choice until a company buys out all its competitors and surpresses the rest.
applfanboysbgon 5mo ago
> You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly if they are bad. There are exactly two companies in the global credit card market and they operate in lockstep, literally coming to agreements to shut down legal businesses together. Visa and MasterCard have absolutely no right to determine who is and isn't allowed to receive payment. Governments have that right, but that doesn't mean they should use it -- if they're abusing that right, people can vote them out. The effectiveness of people voting out harmful politicians is another matter, but that's kind of on the people being bad at voting, not the idea of government altogether, and at any rate you have no vote whatsoever in what MC/Visa do (unless you vote for government to regulate them!).
deaux 5mo ago
> You have choice with a company, This is wrong for a large share of the companies that most people deal with on a daily basis. And that share has been steadily increasing every single year.
somewhatgoated 5mo ago
Like others said that choice is not really given in this case. Also with the government option it wouldn’t mean that you can’t still use other methods - for example in brasil credit card or cash work just fine, PIX is just one (very convenient) option.
- throwaway2037 5mo ago
  Do corner stores (small informal convenience stores) in Brasil usually accept PIX? I assume they all cash-only. Also: What is PIX uptake/penetration like in the countryside? China is shocking how fast that countryside wet/farmer's markets started accepting AliPay. Literally, you can buy a kilo of pumpkin (namguo) using nothing but your mobile phone with AliPay, and the old lady running the stand (in a wet market) probably has a 6th grade education. (No hate on that!)
  - snovv_crash 5mo ago
    In Africa they've had this since ~2005 with the Mpesa system. It basically transfers cellphone credits as payment. In certain regions everyone with a dumb phone was hooked up and you could do anything from buy a coconut from a guy on the side of the road to pay your taxi driver to pay at the supermarket.
    - throwaway2037 5mo ago
      Wow, this is a great reply! "In Africa" -> Can you share a few countries? Google tells me that East Africa is the biggest users: Kenya, Tanzania, etc. (No hate on the use of "In Africa here"... as Google tells me it is used in at least 10 different African countries.)
      - snovv_crash 5mo ago
        Anywhere that MTN (telecom provider) operates. East and southern Africa mostly.
  - dormento 5mo ago
surgical_fire 5mo ago
> You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly Oh yeah? Please enlihhten me, how exactly can I switch providers from the Visa/Mastercard duopoly?
- vanjoe 5mo ago
  Duopoly is bad. We should work to fix that. A monopoly is worse.
array_key_first 5mo ago
Theres a natural tension here, because in order for this to be true you need a diverse market with many competitors. But that is bad usually, because it's extremely inefficient, so it gets optimized out. The monopolies we see are indeed an optimization - the natural climax of a developing market. Consider payments: you do not want to carry around 100 different cards and trinkets just to pay for things in your daily life, right? And for merchants, they do not want to make deals with 100 different companies to accept payments, right? So what's the end result? We see the monopolies in the US economy because our economy is very efficient. It could be even more efficient - consider, for example, how much time and money could be saved if only one phone OS existed. But then of course that's bad for you, the consumer, because then these huge corporations rule your life and can essentially do whatever they want.