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Saudi Arabia implements electronic tracking system for women
- mtgx 14y ago"Women under male custody". Wow. I hadn't realized Saudi Arabia is so primitive. If the US Government is going to send them billions in aid (to buy weapons from US companies, and therefor indirectly subsidize them), can't it influence some of these decisions? Or does it prefer it when it's run by dictators?
- Cieplak 14y agoEven more ironic given that the Taliban's treatment of women is frequently used to justify the war in Afghanistan.
- zalew 14y agoYou'd be very surprised to notice how often locals give less of a crap about stuff that enrages the western blogger crowd, or how many non-Americans don't share the feeling US needs to stick their nose into every other country's internal affairs. Don't be fooled, if the US didn't care their BFF Pahlavi murdered and tortured Iranians, you shouldn't expect they care about women rights or whatever in SA.
- da_n 14y agoYou think it is only American bloggers who have a concern? That's nonsense. This is human rights, basic human rights. Women in Saudi are treated like pets, and it should be judged abhorrent by any (relatively) civilised society.
- rdl 14y agoThey're treated badly by the state (officially), but it's getting better, AND many Saudis actually do treat each other much more reasonably than the law requires -- behind closed doors, plenty of Saudi women are living decent lives, and spend as much of their time outside Saudi as possible. It's still bad, but it's not as bad as you might fear.
- esolyt 14y ago>and spend as much of their time outside Saudi as possible. Well, they shouldn't have to. That's the point.
- arrrg 14y agoI’m not sure how that is relevant? People being treated like that is always completely unacceptable. Nothing can excuse that. Everything you say there really doesn’t matter at all for this evaluation. Actually and effectively doing something about that is the hard part and there are probably no simple solutions. That doesn’t change the nature of this crass violation of human dignity.
- at-fates-hands 14y ago>>>Don't be fooled, if the US didn't care their BFF Pahlavi murdered and tortured Iranians, you shouldn't expect they care about women rights or whatever in SA. I always held a similar belief. I found it ironic to hear liberal women talking about a "war on women" by the GOP, but never seem to muster enough strength to do something about these incredible injustices women endure in Saudi Arabia.
- zalew 14y agoyou somehow missed the main point, which was they should mind their own business not "do something to fix a place they are not entitled to fix, a place they don't even understand", especially when modern history shows they don't even mind manslaughter at all as long as the oil/cash/whatever is flowing.
- saljam 14y agoReally? You think the US government cares about Saudi Arabian women? I don't think they're that benevolent. And since when did the US send aid money to the Saudis? Last time I check their oil pumps were working.
- zalew 14y agoUS sends military aid to SA as a mean of protecting their interests in the region. SA is not exactly a friend with Iran and the US makes sure their pumps don't change ownership.
- mahmud 14y agonitpick. "SA" is usually the initialism for South Africa (RSA). For Saudi Arabia it's KSA, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
- waterlesscloud 14y agoAnd the UK, whose arms sales to KSA are not exactly negligible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Yamamah_arms_deal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Yamamah_arms_deal
- saljam 14y agoArms deals and aid are different. However, you're right, and Alyamamah isn't the only one. The huge sums of money and fraud involved in all the arms deals between the Gulf Nations and the West is embarrassing to to both ends to say the least.
- afterburner 14y agoSaudi Arabia is one of the most fundamentalist Islamic countries, not at the royalty level who rule the country, but at the imam and religious law level. There is a separate religious police, who's job it is to enforce the Qu'ran as interpreted by the strict imams. Only Afghanistan under Taliban rule was arguably worse in recent times. Now, keeping all that in mind, what do you think the local population will think of the US telling them which parts of the Qu'ran to not obey (according to their interpretation)?
- dmix 14y ago> Now, keeping all that in mind, what do you think the local population will think of the US telling them which parts of the Qu'ran to not obey (according to their interpretation)? Thank you for pointing this out. Forcing countries to follow your views will likely provoke an opposite effect.
- freshhawk 14y agoYes, that would probably backfire horribly. What could be done is just to remove all the financial, material and intelligence support that the US gives to that country.
- tareqak 14y agoThat would be part of the solution, but doing that alone would cause more problems than it would solve. But, this won't happen until the United States secures a source of energy that will be a suitable replacement to the oil from that region in terms of energy/mass, volume of production, compatibility with existing energy usage (can be used in average vehicle). And do you think that the Saudis would just fall over if the US stopped buying their oil from them? China and India are growing energy consumers and their energy needs will grow at a faster rate than rate at which US energy usage will fall through technological breakthroughs. And doing think the Saudi government as it is now is the worst thing imaginable? There maybe a few religious fundamentalists among them, but even at that end of the spectrum there are moderates and radicals. Moderate extremists and radical extremists: who would have thought? If the current government was to vanish overnight, the tug of war between people wanting more freedom and the extremists who are too extreme for the current government would massive. If anything, the extremists would have the most to lose and would thus fight the hardest (and the most dirty). And if you think foreign fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq were a problem, imagine the level of recruitment when you hear that the two holiest sites in Islam are under threat to "Western-backed" fighters. Even if the rest of world did not offer material aid, the extremist propaganda machine would term their enemies "Western-backed" because they would interpret any sort of sympathy as backing. And besides, they've "always" been fighting the West (think 1984 with a sprinkling of Call of Duty, but from the side you usually don't play). After reading all this, you'll probably be thinking "you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't". You're right. The current policy seems to be to stonewall until a new development (for better or for worse) appears.
- citricsquid 14y agoI was reading about Saudi Arabia earlier, it's quite a strange place (compared to some of the western world). Their royal family is especially interesting, they have something like $1 trillion USD to their names: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud
- w1ntermute 14y agoAnd very close ties to the Bush family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud In Saudi Arabia, 95% of exports and 70% of government revenue come from oil, one of the big reasons I'm cheering on Musk/Tesla. Once oil is irrelevant, backwards religious bigots, from Saudi Arabia to Texas, will become irrelevant too.
- AJ007 14y agoThey will become irrelevant as far as Americans watching CNN are concerned.
- arjunnarayan 14y agoThe United States sends them billions of dollars worth of arms, surveillance tech and other tools to oppress the Saudi populace. It does this (and has done this for many decades now) in order to keep the oil flowing. In other words, it props up an illegitimate dictatorial family, and in turn they keep the oil flowing at a fairly stable and cheap price. And now you wonder why young Sauds who are oppressed by this situation hate the United States? The people's oil is taken out of the ground by an illegitimate government propped up by the people who buy the oil at what they perceive to be below the fair price. Make no mistake, the source of the problem is the United States.
- waterlesscloud 14y agoNo, the source of the problem is the local rulers. Sorry, they don't get to be absolved of responsibility for their actions. They make their own choices.
- colanderman 14y agoBy that logic it is OK to donate money to terrorist groups, because they make their own choices and are solely to blame for their actions. Correct?
- waterlesscloud 14y agoPlease refrain from making strawman arguments. We're discussing the source of the problem. The source is in fact the local rulers. They make the choices. The US sells arms to the rulers, as does the UK. Europe buys oil from them, as does China, in large amounts. But none of these nations force the KSA government to be oppressive. That's a choice the government there makes.
- colanderman 14y agoNo one forces terrorists to terrorize. Therefore donating no-strings-attached monetary aid to terrorists is not to blame for acts of terrorism, correct? I'm merely forming an analogous argument to yours: mine is in support of subsidizing terrorists, yours is in support of subsidizing systematic violators of human rights. If you can point out why the analogy is not valid, please do so. Re: your edit: at issue is not that the US purchases goods from the Saudis (though it could be argued that we have a moral obligation to impose an embargo), but rather, as the parent of your post suggested, that the US subsidizes artificially low oil prices from the region.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- pknerd 14y ago_Women under male custody_ Ironically US could not elect it's first Women President yet. On contrary several Muslim states had a female PM/President.
- jrogers65 14y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re... The US has made a solid and consistent habit of supporting very distasteful governments in order to profit from them. This has been happening for almost a century now. The propaganda is so well crafted that most people do not notice the fact.
- jamesbrennan 14y agoThis is such a disappointing use of technology.
- saljam 14y agoI don't really see the point of this, given that women and non-adults can't cross a border anyway without a signed permit from their father or husband. I'm guessing this text message system works for children too.
- shinratdr 14y agohttp://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821675 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821675
- namank 14y agoHow are they tracking the women? Phones? Sounds like the couple that got the text wasn't even aware of the service to begin with.
- saljam 14y agoNo, it's nowhere near as high tech as the article makes it sound. In contrast to how it works in the UK for example, in Saudi Arabia you have to go through passport control whenever you leave the country. This new system checks if the person leaving is a child or a woman and texts their father's or husband's phone number if they have it registered. They can find that information because it's all part of the ID system that's been implemented for decades.
- mnemonicsloth 14y agoObviously this is because so many Saudi women are ninjas.
- mcantelon 14y agoNote that the US and Canada governments, despite their posturing about the Taliban's abuse of women, are very friendly with Saudi Arabia.
- alan_cx 14y agoSo, from a story about tracking kids in a US school to tracking women in Saudi. See where this leads?
- kamaal 14y agoReligious extremism can be very convincing when you are into it. The problem is very similar to the editor religion. Unless you are shown the other part of the world you may never realize the futility of your ideology and actions. Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy, frankly speaking the monarchy should/would have collapsed long time back if not the for the systematic information control and low ball offers made by the royal family to the citizens. The Saudi Regime survives on creating a useless welfare state, fueling religious passion and creating things like the religious police, and then of course providing some good facilities at the Islamic holy sites. What they provide to the their citizens is actually nothing in front of what they steal. The current king abdullah's father had some tens of wives, from which he had tens of kids. The family's strength is well placed at some 15,000 members currently. They are almost growing at a near exponential rate. The problem is each member of the family sort of demands a share of the pie, and its quite well known that much of wealth of the nation is shared among the members of the Saud Family. With so many thousands of them being present, to prevent a break down and rebellion among family members, most government high posts, money making job positions, contracts and anything of financial significance always goes to the saud family members. The family also has very close ties to a religious family called Al-Sheik. And they often marry among each other to preserve their trust and dependency on each other. Apart from that it is believed, the saud family members also marry among other clans and tribes to keep them in picture too. The common masses, are well made to believe they are living under a generous king whose duties extend beyond that of state matters and also include doing the holy work of god.
- mkhattab 14y agoInteresting that what you described is reminiscent of the Jahiliyyah. Al Saud, in this context, reminds me of Quraysh.
- FaddiCat 14y ago> Interesting that what you described is reminiscent of the Jahiliyyah In what way?
- rorrr 14y ago> Unless you are shown the other part of the world you may never realize the futility of your ideology and actions Exactly. If you think christianity is any better, I've got news for you: http://www.towleroad.com/2012/05/nc-pastor-wants-to-build-electrified-fence-to-contain-starve-and-ultimately-kill-gays-video.html http://www.towleroad.com/2012/05/nc-pastor-wants-to-build-el...
- ramgorur 14y agoJust wondering could these people make a single tracking device of their own.
- saljam 14y agoWell, I'm an Arab, and I can. What's your point?
- ramgorur 14y agocongrats!!
- PedroBatista 14y agoI just love the supreme amount of xenophobia an arrogance packed in the expression "these people".
- ramgorur 14y agoyes, you got it almost right, but my above comment does not actually involve any "xenophobism" or "arrogance", rather it is "disgust". I am not arab, but somewhat closely related. I was just wondering when children are dying in a place that is not very far from their main land, but their goverment is busy tagging their women -- I think they should focus on more "important" issue. Hope you got my point.
- pooriaazimi 14y agoAnd I hope you understand that throughout the history, there have been very few occasions that a government has done what its people wanted. Usually they either oppress them, or "fool" them. KSA isn't very kind to political offenders. They behead them in the public (with a sword!). So you'll excuse them (Arabs) if they're a little less eager to rebel against extremely rich and powerful Saudies than we'd like... (I'm not saying that there's a shortage of thick-headed, stupid, overly-religious arabs in KSA. Such stupid people are everywhere, even in best parts of Europe. But they're not a true representative of "Arabs", in general).
- jmedwards 14y agoI'm trying to remember that quotation I've stolen and hatcheted this from: Bombs and tanks don't scare these folks, but a girl with a book does.
- Tipzntrix 14y agoThis was when the Pakistani girl was shot for displaying "Western beliefs" by going to school
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- marquis 14y agoAre you aware of the twitter backlash? Are you also trying to say that imprisoned women are quite happy or unaware of their situation? Religious restrictions don't make restrictions right, if they are opposed by force. Your comments above are rather tactless I'm afraid.
- jpatokal 14y agoOddly enough, this represents progress of a sort. Until fairly recently, Saudi women did not have identity numbers or cards, effectively meaning that they could be murdered by relatives with no repercussions. http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/burton022005.html http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/burton022005.html
- Wingman4l7 14y agoChilling.
- uzair88 14y agoI can't make up my mind what's worse...KSA tracking women or France telling them what they can and can't wear
- astrobe_ 14y agoThis is a ludicrous distortion of facts. French law only forbid some kind of dressing. Furthermore, it was done in the name of women's rights and dignity, pretty much the opposite of KSA.
- zerostar07 14y agoHint: it's #1. The women of france, as part of the population, voted for what they can't wear (not what they can) as a tiny sacrifice for the greater good. Superficial comparisons are always misleading
- mikeash 14y agoTry harder.
- surrealize 14y agoAs an onion headline, it would have been hilarious. As a real story, it's scary as hell.
- pknerd 14y agoMost Probably Saudi government will not need to come up with such steps like US government to safegaud American women? http://www.womenshealth.gov/violence-against-women/types-of-violence/sexual-assault-and-abuse.cfm http://www.womenshealth.gov/violence-against-women/types-of-...
- jasonlingx 14y ago"Electronic tracking system for women"? You mean passports?
- axyjo 14y agoOther countries in the area have had this for a while. For example, the United Arab Emirates sends out text messages when any dependant enters or leaves the country.
- ChrisNorstrom 14y agoI always thought that advancing technology would move humanity towards freedom from oppression. Turns out, the oppressors simply adjusted their tactics to use technology against freedom. This just made me realize: 1) a tool's just a tool, no matter how immaculate. 2) Never trust the user. 3) Don't give concentrated power to one group of people. 4) Beware the 1st rule of nature & evolution: The aggressive will dominate the passive.
- ZoFreX 14y ago"To every man is given the key to the gates of heaven; the same key opens the gates of hell." - Buddhist proverb, via Richard Feynman
- jschuur 14y agoSome additional information on this, including how the system has been in place since 2010, with the recent change being that you're now (somehow) getting text messages without registering your mobile number: http://riyadhbureau.com/blog/2012/11/saudi-women-tracking http://riyadhbureau.com/blog/2012/11/saudi-women-tracking
- Mordor 14y agoThey should pass laws to emancipate dogs in the West - your move Saudi.
- nova 14y agoThat's truly horrible. I'm glad that our civilized governments would avoid such blatant sexism and instead mandate electronic tracking for all citizens, irrespective of gender. For our protection.
- skeltoac 14y agoIs anyone in San Antonio planning to print this article and hand it to the principals of John Jay High School and Jay Science & Engineering Academy?