5 ms·

5 years at Tesla is an eternity in the tech world. And 2 years is probably pretty average for the whole tech industry.

prerok 5mo ago
Depends on the country, I guess. In Europe, it would definitely not be the norm and I would definitely call previous employers if it was several 2 year stints.
- gambiting 5mo ago
  If you're really in Europe then I'm sure you know that calling previous employers is completely pointless, the best you'll get is "yes this person has worked here before". And I work in games and 2-3 years at each company is pretty normal, with some exceptions people just finish a project and then move(or are let go, unfortunately). YMMV of course.
  - prerok 5mo ago
    Depends, but definitely not pointless. Though, I do have the benefit of working in a small country, so chances are that I will know of the company and perchance know folks that work there. Even if not, employers will still see fit to help each other, at least if they are not direct competitors.
  - johnnyanmac 5mo ago
    > I work in games and 2-3 years at each company is pretty normal, with some exceptions people just finish a project and then move(or are let go, unfortunately). YMMV of course. Yeah, being laid off every 2-3 years is a lot different from job hopping and shows exactly why the games industry is in its own little pocket of screwed in this market. Especially with games taking 3-5+ years to be made. How do you keep institutional knowledge when you kick it all out and basically start from scratch every cycle. -sincerely, another game dev
- FabCH 5mo ago
  While I absolutely confirm that everything you said is true, it’s interesting that that call would be illegal in many European countries. And in many more you would at best get a „I can confirm this person worked on this position in this timeframe“
  - prerok 5mo ago
    Hmm, interesting point, I did not know that. But, aside from that, while they cannot tell you that the candidate would not be ok, I did get hints on what to look out for. I mean, you always have to take the previous employers' statements with a grain of salt, but if they say they really employed for just that project, it's also good info.
- jstummbillig 5mo ago
  2-3 years is pretty average tenure inside the EU tech sector for the past few years [1], but regardless I don't know what that tells us, given that nothing else about this is average. The sample size of Andrej-sized talent in an ongoing tech revolution of epic proportions is just very small. [1] https://ravio.com/blog/employee-tenure-trends https://ravio.com/blog/employee-tenure-trends
- sneak 5mo ago
  Europe’s labor market is sadly still mostly out of touch with how startups work. It’s stuck in the last century. I’m not sure if this is due to tradition, or due to the fact that startups are much harder to start in Europe in general, so people on both sides of the hiring process have less experience with it. Two years is more than long enough to join a startup, build 3 things, and see that your equity is never going to be worth anything, and find a new job. This isn’t anomalous or weird.
  - dukeyukey 5mo ago
    Europe is not a monolith and I don't know why people think it is. 2 years stints are not unusual at all in London.
    - sneak 5mo ago
      London is economically, politically, geographically, and culturally fairly distinct from continental Europe.
      - dukeyukey 5mo ago
        Then people should say "continental Europe" instead of saying "Europe".
    - holoduke 5mo ago
      It's about equity worth nothing jn Europe as an employee. Europe is a bad place for employees to join a startup. Lots of time people are attracted with shares/stars whatever. Only to find out they get nothing or are taxed to hell. There is a reason why Europe is failing.
- toephu2 5mo ago
  Andrej Karpathy is from Europe (Slovakia).
  - prerok 5mo ago
    His point of origin is immaterial to my point. I was not commenting specifically for Mr. Karpathy. My point was generic.
- barrenko 5mo ago
  And we have the stock market to show for it.
  - prerok 5mo ago
    I would not say that this is because of this point. It's because investors in Europe are more conservative. Employees are as well, it's true, so it's strange to have someone out of the norm. It's not a red flag per se, but it's a thing to be evaluated.
- dukeyukey 5mo ago
  Europe is not a monolith. Lots of short stints is not unusual in London.
  - jen20 5mo ago
    Indeed it used to be the norm since basically everyone worth hiring was a contractor prior to the IR35 debacle.
  - prerok 5mo ago
    At startups? Sure. Several stints at non-startups? Well, how much of that time was spent learning the domain? Is that knowledge transferrable (probably not because of non-competition clause)? Why were you not happy at the previous employer? I am not saying any of these don't have valid answers. What I am saying is that we would prefer juniors that are commited and do the hard work when the work gets hard. And, at least where I work now, this gets recognized, and they become seniors in time.
  - worik 5mo ago
    London has not been part of Europe for a decade now. They locked themselves out in a bout of insanity
    - maleldil 5mo ago
      Europe and the European Union are not the same thing. The UK is definitely European.
    - dukeyukey 5mo ago
      Moscow, Belgrade, the Vatican, and yes, London, are all part of Europe. They just aren't part of the EU.
volkk 5mo ago
> And 2 years is probably pretty average for the whole tech industry. maybe for a fungible CRUD engineer. I think Karpathy is in a different league and I'm certainly surprised to hear this fact. I would expect someone like him to sit within a certain lab for a long time
- staticassertion 5mo ago
  That seems like the opposite. Why would someone with high market value stay in one place? 2 years is basically optimal - you vest 50%, maybe collect a promotion, do some good work and learn a lot, and then get to move on for another solid bump/ promotion and a new set of stocks. I expect the people with low market value to be the ones sticking around labs for long periods of time, they don't have the option to move and they aren't getting poached.
  - jackling 5mo ago
    It's incredibly hard to do good, novel work in 2 years for engineering. You'll likely not learn much either.
- cameldrv 5mo ago
  He's an extraordinarily bright guy. He can get a lot more done in two years than most people, and he can get up to speed with a new organization and a new task and be productive much faster than most people. My impression with no inside knowledge, but understanding what Elon companies are like, is that he was assigned essentially an impossible task at Tesla and tried his very best, but it could not be done, and he semi-burned out. It makes sense for him to be getting back on the horse now. The Elon approach to management as I see it is to assign what normally would be totally unreasonable goals to a small group of extremely bright people, and they work their asses off and somehow find a way. Sometimes this works, and sometimes it doesn't. If it works and the impossible was in fact, just barely possible, you dominate the market, everyone gets rich, and the people see it as the most exciting, intense, and rewarding part of their career. If it doesn't, they get depressed, divorced, and looking for other work. The Elon magic is threading the needle closely enough that a lot of the seemingly impossible things are in fact possible with enough hard work and brainpower, but although Elon is extremely good at this, the nature of the thing is that you can't predict which side you'll wind up on fully accurately.
StilesCrisis 5mo ago
The folks I know who bounce that often are generally mis-hires: - barely qualified, leaving to avoid getting PIP'ed - overqualified/under-leveled, and moving is faster than getting promoted
- Rover222 5mo ago
  I think it happens on both ends of the spectrum, the folks you described, and also the ones with a good reputation and network who get recruited into new opportunities.

Depends on the country, I guess. In Europe, it would definitely not be the norm and I would definitely call previous employers if it was several 2 year stints.

gambiting 5mo ago
If you're really in Europe then I'm sure you know that calling previous employers is completely pointless, the best you'll get is "yes this person has worked here before". And I work in games and 2-3 years at each company is pretty normal, with some exceptions people just finish a project and then move(or are let go, unfortunately). YMMV of course.
- prerok 5mo ago
  Depends, but definitely not pointless. Though, I do have the benefit of working in a small country, so chances are that I will know of the company and perchance know folks that work there. Even if not, employers will still see fit to help each other, at least if they are not direct competitors.
- johnnyanmac 5mo ago
  > I work in games and 2-3 years at each company is pretty normal, with some exceptions people just finish a project and then move(or are let go, unfortunately). YMMV of course. Yeah, being laid off every 2-3 years is a lot different from job hopping and shows exactly why the games industry is in its own little pocket of screwed in this market. Especially with games taking 3-5+ years to be made. How do you keep institutional knowledge when you kick it all out and basically start from scratch every cycle. -sincerely, another game dev
FabCH 5mo ago
While I absolutely confirm that everything you said is true, it’s interesting that that call would be illegal in many European countries. And in many more you would at best get a „I can confirm this person worked on this position in this timeframe“
- prerok 5mo ago
  Hmm, interesting point, I did not know that. But, aside from that, while they cannot tell you that the candidate would not be ok, I did get hints on what to look out for. I mean, you always have to take the previous employers' statements with a grain of salt, but if they say they really employed for just that project, it's also good info.
jstummbillig 5mo ago
2-3 years is pretty average tenure inside the EU tech sector for the past few years [1], but regardless I don't know what that tells us, given that nothing else about this is average. The sample size of Andrej-sized talent in an ongoing tech revolution of epic proportions is just very small. [1] https://ravio.com/blog/employee-tenure-trends https://ravio.com/blog/employee-tenure-trends
sneak 5mo ago
Europe’s labor market is sadly still mostly out of touch with how startups work. It’s stuck in the last century. I’m not sure if this is due to tradition, or due to the fact that startups are much harder to start in Europe in general, so people on both sides of the hiring process have less experience with it. Two years is more than long enough to join a startup, build 3 things, and see that your equity is never going to be worth anything, and find a new job. This isn’t anomalous or weird.
- dukeyukey 5mo ago
  Europe is not a monolith and I don't know why people think it is. 2 years stints are not unusual at all in London.
  - sneak 5mo ago
    London is economically, politically, geographically, and culturally fairly distinct from continental Europe.
    - dukeyukey 5mo ago
      Then people should say "continental Europe" instead of saying "Europe".
  - holoduke 5mo ago
    It's about equity worth nothing jn Europe as an employee. Europe is a bad place for employees to join a startup. Lots of time people are attracted with shares/stars whatever. Only to find out they get nothing or are taxed to hell. There is a reason why Europe is failing.
toephu2 5mo ago
Andrej Karpathy is from Europe (Slovakia).
- prerok 5mo ago
  His point of origin is immaterial to my point. I was not commenting specifically for Mr. Karpathy. My point was generic.
barrenko 5mo ago
And we have the stock market to show for it.
- prerok 5mo ago
  I would not say that this is because of this point. It's because investors in Europe are more conservative. Employees are as well, it's true, so it's strange to have someone out of the norm. It's not a red flag per se, but it's a thing to be evaluated.
dukeyukey 5mo ago
Europe is not a monolith. Lots of short stints is not unusual in London.
- jen20 5mo ago
  Indeed it used to be the norm since basically everyone worth hiring was a contractor prior to the IR35 debacle.
- prerok 5mo ago
  At startups? Sure. Several stints at non-startups? Well, how much of that time was spent learning the domain? Is that knowledge transferrable (probably not because of non-competition clause)? Why were you not happy at the previous employer? I am not saying any of these don't have valid answers. What I am saying is that we would prefer juniors that are commited and do the hard work when the work gets hard. And, at least where I work now, this gets recognized, and they become seniors in time.
- worik 5mo ago
  London has not been part of Europe for a decade now. They locked themselves out in a bout of insanity
  - maleldil 5mo ago
    Europe and the European Union are not the same thing. The UK is definitely European.
  - dukeyukey 5mo ago
    Moscow, Belgrade, the Vatican, and yes, London, are all part of Europe. They just aren't part of the EU.

volkk 5mo ago

> And 2 years is probably pretty average for the whole tech industry. maybe for a fungible CRUD engineer. I think Karpathy is in a different league and I'm certainly surprised to hear this fact. I would expect someone like him to sit within a certain lab for a long time

staticassertion 5mo ago
That seems like the opposite. Why would someone with high market value stay in one place? 2 years is basically optimal - you vest 50%, maybe collect a promotion, do some good work and learn a lot, and then get to move on for another solid bump/ promotion and a new set of stocks. I expect the people with low market value to be the ones sticking around labs for long periods of time, they don't have the option to move and they aren't getting poached.
- jackling 5mo ago
  It's incredibly hard to do good, novel work in 2 years for engineering. You'll likely not learn much either.
cameldrv 5mo ago
He's an extraordinarily bright guy. He can get a lot more done in two years than most people, and he can get up to speed with a new organization and a new task and be productive much faster than most people. My impression with no inside knowledge, but understanding what Elon companies are like, is that he was assigned essentially an impossible task at Tesla and tried his very best, but it could not be done, and he semi-burned out. It makes sense for him to be getting back on the horse now. The Elon approach to management as I see it is to assign what normally would be totally unreasonable goals to a small group of extremely bright people, and they work their asses off and somehow find a way. Sometimes this works, and sometimes it doesn't. If it works and the impossible was in fact, just barely possible, you dominate the market, everyone gets rich, and the people see it as the most exciting, intense, and rewarding part of their career. If it doesn't, they get depressed, divorced, and looking for other work. The Elon magic is threading the needle closely enough that a lot of the seemingly impossible things are in fact possible with enough hard work and brainpower, but although Elon is extremely good at this, the nature of the thing is that you can't predict which side you'll wind up on fully accurately.

StilesCrisis 5mo ago

The folks I know who bounce that often are generally mis-hires: - barely qualified, leaving to avoid getting PIP'ed - overqualified/under-leveled, and moving is faster than getting promoted

Rover222 5mo ago
I think it happens on both ends of the spectrum, the folks you described, and also the ones with a good reputation and network who get recruited into new opportunities.