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I was arguing with a Chilean friend who moved a few years ago to the USA. He was telling me how Chile doesn't do good science. I challenged his claim saying Chi
by jerojero 5mo ago
I was arguing with a Chilean friend who moved a few years ago to the USA. He was telling me how Chile doesn't do good science. I challenged his claim saying Chile actually had great scientists that were severely underfunded (Chile's investment in science and research is ~0.4% of the GDP versus the OECD average of ~2.7%).
I think it's sort of a big consensus with people that have never been involved in science work, in Chile, that science is sort of a "lazy-man" type of work. Chilean universities put a lot of emphasis in foundational science research. It should be the industry, in my opinion, that helps bridge the gaps between foundational research and applied science. But the major industries in Chile don't need to do that, why put money into R&D when you can already be a billion-dollar industry by exporting rocks. Chile's main export is not actually copper, it's rocks that have copper in them. We (I'm Chilean) export the rocks and buy back the copper cables.
Recently the newly elected president criticized foundational research saying it doesn't "turn into jobs" and instead "ends up in an expensive book abandoned in a library". It really reminded me of my friend's words, it's the attitude of someone that doesn't understand the importance of foundational science.
This research is interesting, although the article is quite technical, and I'm very happy to see the involvement of Chilean scientists in it.
- Zardoz84 5mo ago¿Para que inventar nosotros ? Que ellos ya lo inventan. - A Spanish politician in the first years of XX century to a Spanish inventor working with early radios.
- cogman10 5mo agoThat's actually a bit wild that Chile isn't refining or smelting copper. Is it because there's not the energy capacity to run smelters? I thought Chili had a pretty abundant energy grid (mostly hydro as I recall).
- compass_copium 5mo agoThese systems aren't in place by accident. The US doesn't typically purchase roasted coffee beans or chocolate bars from South America either.
- cogman10 5mo agoRoasted coffee loses flavor after roasting. Chocolate requires various ingredients to make that changes the characteristics of the chocolate. It also, famously, doesn't ship well. Copper ingots, however, weigh less than copper ore and if they are actually too low quality they can be resmelted into a more pure level. The only reason I can think of why you might actually want the ore is you also want and are extracting other secondary minerals.
- jjk166 5mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
- ninalanyon 5mo agoAustralia behaves the same way, exports ore to China and buys back the refined products. Both countries have abundant energy (hydro and solar) but have old fashioned mining interests in charge.
- nemomarx 5mo agoWhy do the mining interests prefer exporting it to selling to some local processor? you could probably get similar prices and the transport wouldn't be as complex, right?
- ImPostingOnHN 5mo agoGiven the comparative economies of scale, you would probably get lower quality of product, and potentially higher prices, if a local processor exists at all.
- nemomarx 5mo agoSure, which is bad for the consumer of copper. But the mining companies don't have an obvious reason to be unhappy about that? the smaller local market won't have any alternative sources and might have to pay them more if it existed so you'd think they would be encouraging some small local smelters or etc if anything. It would be everyone else who buys copper who has reason to be against doing it locally
- bigyabai 5mo ago> the smaller local market won't have any alternative sources Ea-nāṣir will still receive complaints, presumably.
- jandrewrogers 5mo agoThe cost of refining ore varies widely based on electricity, regulatory, and other costs. Proximity to the end user of the refined product also figures into it. Shipping bulk materials is very inexpensive. Buyers in other countries with low refining costs can pay prices that would bankrupt a local refiner and still make a profit. This is common for bulk industrial materials. For example, it is cheaper for many countries to send their crude oil to the US to be refined than for them to refine it themselves.
- dietr1ch 5mo ago> Is it because there's not the energy capacity to run smelters? Most mines are in the north, but the hydro capacity is far from them in the south. That's one challenge, but to me doesn't explain why. Chile nationalised copper with aims to develop our industry, but then the US decided to sabotage our democracy.
- igleria 5mo ago> Recently the newly elected president criticized foundational research saying it doesn't "turn into jobs" and instead "ends up in an expensive book abandoned in a library" Guess what the other far right president of the region says (Argentina's). Makes me sad.
- subw00f 5mo agoIt's the same for the whole region, friend. Shut up and keep mining, harvesting, or raising these cows for the gringos, ain't no need to get clever about it.
- throwaway5752 5mo agoUnless the PRC is a gringo now, you should not limit your concern to the US. The easiest propaganda technique - and trivially easy to accomplish with basic agents and existing social platforms - is divide and conquer. Get people fighting about who is exploiting them, and they cannot unite against anyone exploiting them. edit: no need to make the thread deeper. I agree with your reply, too. Two things can be correct at once, and usually are.
- subw00f 5mo agoI'm well aware of the share of commodity exports that goes to China. I'm also well aware of the history of US intervention and its brutality in South America and what it did to keep the region its backyard. Now, if the PRC wants to do the same, they need to seriously step up their game, because it was a LOT.
- tomaskafka 5mo agoYou described https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
- throwaway5752 5mo agothe newly elected president criticized foundational research saying it doesn't "turn into jobs" and instead "ends up in an expensive book abandoned in a library". That isn't the Dutch Disease, it's anti-intellectualism. It is where Pol Pots come from eventually, and it never leads anywhere good.
- subw00f 5mo agoOr, you know, the Chilean US puppet Augusto Pinochet who killed, jailed, or exiled professors, intellectuals, students etc.
- throwaway5752 5mo agoPinochet was a garden variety kleptocrat and villain, not an ideologue. Where Milei falls remains to be determined. edit: also no reason to make this thread deeper, but you seem to be missing the idea that I am insulting Pinochet. He didn't do it for any reason other than power and money. That is worse. For whatever reason, you appear to think I have views I do not, and are assuming the worst of my replies. I will not reply further.
- subw00f 5mo agoFunny, and here I was thinking that neoliberal authoritarianism, Cold War anti-communism, and neofascism were all ideologies. But I guess it's only ideology if the bad guy was propped up by the USSR or the PRC?
- pdabbadabba 5mo agoYou seem to be confusing Chile and Argentina. Milei is president of Argentina, not Chile. The new president of Chile is José Kast. I suspect the substance of your comment is unaffected by this, however.
- nidayewo 5mo ago[dead]
- Terr_ 5mo agoI think some of it ties into incrementalism versus "great man" theory. I believe we dramatically underestimate how much of any new thing is (A) not actually as new as it looks and (B) absolutely required a thousand smaller things like precision screws or pure materials.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- MisterTea 5mo agoI had a Chilean coworker who earned his degree in molecular biology while in Chile. He emigrated to the US (sometime in the early-mid 90's) as he claimed there was little opportunity for scientists in Chile. He worked a basic job that paid the bills while he built up a side business exporting appliances secretly stuffed with gun parts. He was able to retire back to Chile on that money.
- vi_sextus_vi 5mo agoI am the submitter and I am sorry for leaving out, indeed, dismissing the core contribution of the Chilean anthropologists and geologists. The author wouldn't have approved of my editorialising. I am only slightly relieved that HN have bubbled up a conversation about the self-reinforcing north-south divide in "cultural wealth" instead of making it even more exploitative than it was Your friend's contribution to the cultural wealth of Chile is ironic. Maybe (some) Southies now have a better (non-fungible/modular) understanding of precision machining, gun-metallurgy or even biochemistry compared to their NorAm counterparts because of his actions.
- aaron695 5mo ago[dead]
- abreidenbach 5mo ago[dead]