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Untrue. You can actually mine the Venusian surface for metals. Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen (the vast majority of the elements used by life) can be ex

Untrue. You can actually mine the Venusian surface for metals. Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen (the vast majority of the elements used by life) can be extracted from the atmosphere, as well as sulfur. So from an elemental standpoint, it actually could be self-sufficient. Not that you’d WANT to avoid trade with other planets, but it is possible. It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars.

p2detar 5mo ago
Terraforming is possible but colonizing worlds hostile to humans has always meant genetic engineering to me. We need to drop the Star Trek idea that we can explore space in the sacks of water we call bodies.
- pavel_lishin 5mo ago
  Let's take the idea further, and borrow cstross's belief that canned apes will never colonize or explore anything, and only digital uploads into mechanical bodies will be destined for space.
21asdffdsa12 5mo ago
[flagged]
gwbas1c 5mo ago
> although much more difficult than Terraforming is so conceptual at this point that I wouldn't take a hard stance on either being easier or harder. You never know what a few generations of studies will teach us; and what misconceptions we hold dearly that our descendants will laugh at us for.
- marginalia_nu 5mo ago
  At this point we're so deep into the science fiction that it might be easier to just hop into a time machine and colonize Mars before its atmosphere boiled off.
  - airstrike 5mo ago
    Some infinities are bigger than others.
- vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
  From my experience there is a correlation between people who think science is nonsense while also believing in terraforming. I don’t think anybody can even remotely predict the outcomes of a terraforming project.
surgical_fire 5mo ago
> It is also possible to terraform Venus We can't even properly terraform inhospitable places within Earth. Hell, if anything we are very quickly un-terraforming Earth into a place inhospitable to human life.
- t_mahmood 5mo ago
  No shit! We are probably dead even before we can build a habitat on our own orbit. We are failing the great filter very hard.
- vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
  We would have to work really hard to make Earth as inhospitable as other planets or moons in the solar system.
  - zabzonk 5mo ago
    But we are giving it a shot!
- zqna 5mo ago
  If we could send all the terraformers from earth to mars we would so solve both problems at the same time
  - surgical_fire 5mo ago
    Sounds like a plan.
- Robotbeat 5mo ago
  What do you call Phoenix?
glenstein 5mo ago
Yes, but! It's very hard. But you are a million percent right that the Venusian surface has lots of fantastic metals, largely tied up in basalt and volcanic ash. The bad news to my understanding is that they're kind of pulverized and evenly spread out and requires lots of refining/processing, and not necessarily so much in the way of veins/ore deposits ripe for harvesting (though I could be mistaken). But back to how hard it is. There's mid-atmosphere winds that are effectively persistent hurricanes. It's hotter than a pizza oven, and the thick co2 air might as well be an ocean, because it has that much crushing force. In my opinion, people should get excited about the thick atmosphere, because it's also the secret superpower that unlocks all the near term possibilities. Floating in the upper atmosphere is more like being a ship in an ocean, and if we ever got materials strong enough (graphite-carbon composites?) we could do some really cool passive dragnet + air balloon lift kinds of things to recover surface resources and lift them to a hypothetical settlement. The one need-to-have resource that, as far as I know, there's none of on Venus whatsoever, is iodine. So even in the best case you'd have to import that. Oh, and water. You can get some out of the sulfuric acid rain but probably not as much as you want. Granted, these are all assuming technology advances and big time scales, but trying to practice a golden rule here and be as charitable to the exercise as possible and not bean soup the discussion to death, which is a pet peeve of mine.
- mmooss 5mo ago
  How high does the ocean-like CO2 extend? Usually the idea for a base is ~50 km altitude.
- aetherson 5mo ago
  It'd be interesting to try to imagine a Venusian colonization that's like two separated levels: an atmospheric area where most people live and where you grow food, and then a subterranean (yes, yes, sub... aphroditean?) where you mine and so forth, and there are brief, fraught transitions between the two layers but no actual habitation of the surface or lower atmosphere.
0xAFFFF 5mo ago
> It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars. We are facing an existential crisis in the form of climate warming on Earth that we are unable to address properly. The thing is, terraforming Earth is the easiest thing to do: we already live on it, it's already liveable. Mars, Venus or any other body in the solar system is magnitudes harder to transform on almost every aspect. So unless humanity demonstrates it can tackle the easiest terraforming endeavour that be, anything else is firmly in the science fiction realm.
- rapnie 5mo ago
  Exactly. I used to be a lifelong fan of anything space. But right now it is limited to people conducting actual science to get a better understanding of our universe. All the dick-swinging billionaires and geopolitical vanity projects of going to the Moon and Mars are utter follies. Every billion spent there, a waste of money that could be better spent. And I am not even talking about outer atmosphere ultra-rich people tourism in literal penis rockets. Utter pollution and waste. Let's wait to colonize other planets until after we get our own house in order.
  - Robotbeat 5mo ago
    I really doubt your veracity about this. It’s literally illegal for billionaires to geoengineer the Earth to stop global warming (at least in several states). Doubtless you would also object to that as well. In which case it’s not actually about solving Earth’s problems but about not liking those who are doing it.
    - dboreham 5mo ago
      But it is legal for them to fund politicians who believe greenhouse gasses should be limited. Strangely they don't do that, mostly.
    - teachrdan 5mo ago
      Billionaires could trivially fund uncontroversial projects like planting trees or solar electrification, especially in the developing world, both of which would help stop global warming. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for Elon or Larry to start doing either of those things, or anything else that would actually help mitigate or reverse climate change.
mikestew 5mo ago
It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars. We’ve not terraformed anything, ever, but now we can compare the difficulty of terraforming of one planet versus another? “It’s possible”? So is turning lead into gold.
- benced 5mo ago
  Your point is taken but we've turned lead into gold: https://home.cern/alice-detects-conversion-lead-gold-lhc/ https://home.cern/alice-detects-conversion-lead-gold-lhc/
  - mikestew 5mo ago
    I said it was possible. “…fleeting quantities of gold nuclei”, and probably worth far, far less than it cost to make. Given that, I stand by my statement. :-)
jsbisviewtiful 5mo ago
> You can actually mine the Venusian surface for metals By "surface" do you mean the ground of Venus? The odds of a mining operation happening on the ground of Venus seems like science fiction at best, impossible at worst. Between the high winds, corrosive atmosphere, outlandish heat and extreme pressure any vehicle on the surface would be torn to shreds likely within a few hours (which has so far been the case for all landers that actually survived the landing) - and that's not even getting into the idea of getting things off the ground. Extraction from the atmosphere would likely be the only method unless something significant changes with the entire planet. Refining those materials would require a lot of machinery being in Venus's orbit that we'd have to get there, as well. Speaking of the conditions though... > It is also possible to terraform Venus Everything is hypothetical at best regarding this and would require a level of time and resources no government nor company would want to invest for an outstanding "maybe". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus
pasta67 5mo ago
>>>It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars. I would argue that it is very much opposite. Venus has already 80% mass of Earth. Mars on other hand have not much different gravity than that of Moon and Moon is much closer to Earth if you plan to make something suitable for older folks that look for lighter gravity.

p2detar 5mo ago

Terraforming is possible but colonizing worlds hostile to humans has always meant genetic engineering to me. We need to drop the Star Trek idea that we can explore space in the sacks of water we call bodies.

pavel_lishin 5mo ago
Let's take the idea further, and borrow cstross's belief that canned apes will never colonize or explore anything, and only digital uploads into mechanical bodies will be destined for space.

21asdffdsa12 5mo ago

[flagged]

gwbas1c 5mo ago

> although much more difficult than Terraforming is so conceptual at this point that I wouldn't take a hard stance on either being easier or harder. You never know what a few generations of studies will teach us; and what misconceptions we hold dearly that our descendants will laugh at us for.

marginalia_nu 5mo ago
At this point we're so deep into the science fiction that it might be easier to just hop into a time machine and colonize Mars before its atmosphere boiled off.
- airstrike 5mo ago
  Some infinities are bigger than others.
vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
From my experience there is a correlation between people who think science is nonsense while also believing in terraforming. I don’t think anybody can even remotely predict the outcomes of a terraforming project.

surgical_fire 5mo ago

> It is also possible to terraform Venus We can't even properly terraform inhospitable places within Earth. Hell, if anything we are very quickly un-terraforming Earth into a place inhospitable to human life.

t_mahmood 5mo ago
No shit! We are probably dead even before we can build a habitat on our own orbit. We are failing the great filter very hard.
vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
We would have to work really hard to make Earth as inhospitable as other planets or moons in the solar system.
- zabzonk 5mo ago
  But we are giving it a shot!
zqna 5mo ago
If we could send all the terraformers from earth to mars we would so solve both problems at the same time
- surgical_fire 5mo ago
  Sounds like a plan.
Robotbeat 5mo ago
What do you call Phoenix?

glenstein 5mo ago

Yes, but! It's very hard. But you are a million percent right that the Venusian surface has lots of fantastic metals, largely tied up in basalt and volcanic ash. The bad news to my understanding is that they're kind of pulverized and evenly spread out and requires lots of refining/processing, and not necessarily so much in the way of veins/ore deposits ripe for harvesting (though I could be mistaken). But back to how hard it is. There's mid-atmosphere winds that are effectively persistent hurricanes. It's hotter than a pizza oven, and the thick co2 air might as well be an ocean, because it has that much crushing force. In my opinion, people should get excited about the thick atmosphere, because it's also the secret superpower that unlocks all the near term possibilities. Floating in the upper atmosphere is more like being a ship in an ocean, and if we ever got materials strong enough (graphite-carbon composites?) we could do some really cool passive dragnet + air balloon lift kinds of things to recover surface resources and lift them to a hypothetical settlement. The one need-to-have resource that, as far as I know, there's none of on Venus whatsoever, is iodine. So even in the best case you'd have to import that. Oh, and water. You can get some out of the sulfuric acid rain but probably not as much as you want. Granted, these are all assuming technology advances and big time scales, but trying to practice a golden rule here and be as charitable to the exercise as possible and not bean soup the discussion to death, which is a pet peeve of mine.

mmooss 5mo ago
How high does the ocean-like CO2 extend? Usually the idea for a base is ~50 km altitude.
aetherson 5mo ago
It'd be interesting to try to imagine a Venusian colonization that's like two separated levels: an atmospheric area where most people live and where you grow food, and then a subterranean (yes, yes, sub... aphroditean?) where you mine and so forth, and there are brief, fraught transitions between the two layers but no actual habitation of the surface or lower atmosphere.

0xAFFFF 5mo ago

> It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars. We are facing an existential crisis in the form of climate warming on Earth that we are unable to address properly. The thing is, terraforming Earth is the easiest thing to do: we already live on it, it's already liveable. Mars, Venus or any other body in the solar system is magnitudes harder to transform on almost every aspect. So unless humanity demonstrates it can tackle the easiest terraforming endeavour that be, anything else is firmly in the science fiction realm.

rapnie 5mo ago
Exactly. I used to be a lifelong fan of anything space. But right now it is limited to people conducting actual science to get a better understanding of our universe. All the dick-swinging billionaires and geopolitical vanity projects of going to the Moon and Mars are utter follies. Every billion spent there, a waste of money that could be better spent. And I am not even talking about outer atmosphere ultra-rich people tourism in literal penis rockets. Utter pollution and waste. Let's wait to colonize other planets until after we get our own house in order.
- Robotbeat 5mo ago
  I really doubt your veracity about this. It’s literally illegal for billionaires to geoengineer the Earth to stop global warming (at least in several states). Doubtless you would also object to that as well. In which case it’s not actually about solving Earth’s problems but about not liking those who are doing it.
  - dboreham 5mo ago
    But it is legal for them to fund politicians who believe greenhouse gasses should be limited. Strangely they don't do that, mostly.
  - teachrdan 5mo ago
    Billionaires could trivially fund uncontroversial projects like planting trees or solar electrification, especially in the developing world, both of which would help stop global warming. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for Elon or Larry to start doing either of those things, or anything else that would actually help mitigate or reverse climate change.

mikestew 5mo ago

It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars. We’ve not terraformed anything, ever, but now we can compare the difficulty of terraforming of one planet versus another? “It’s possible”? So is turning lead into gold.

benced 5mo ago
Your point is taken but we've turned lead into gold: https://home.cern/alice-detects-conversion-lead-gold-lhc/ https://home.cern/alice-detects-conversion-lead-gold-lhc/
- mikestew 5mo ago
  I said it was possible. “…fleeting quantities of gold nuclei”, and probably worth far, far less than it cost to make. Given that, I stand by my statement. :-)

jsbisviewtiful 5mo ago

> You can actually mine the Venusian surface for metals By "surface" do you mean the ground of Venus? The odds of a mining operation happening on the ground of Venus seems like science fiction at best, impossible at worst. Between the high winds, corrosive atmosphere, outlandish heat and extreme pressure any vehicle on the surface would be torn to shreds likely within a few hours (which has so far been the case for all landers that actually survived the landing) - and that's not even getting into the idea of getting things off the ground. Extraction from the atmosphere would likely be the only method unless something significant changes with the entire planet. Refining those materials would require a lot of machinery being in Venus's orbit that we'd have to get there, as well. Speaking of the conditions though... > It is also possible to terraform Venus Everything is hypothetical at best regarding this and would require a level of time and resources no government nor company would want to invest for an outstanding "maybe". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus

pasta67 5mo ago

>>>It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars. I would argue that it is very much opposite. Venus has already 80% mass of Earth. Mars on other hand have not much different gravity than that of Moon and Moon is much closer to Earth if you plan to make something suitable for older folks that look for lighter gravity.