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Agreed. The main reason we believe consciousness exists is because we all experience it. So it’s hard to deny.

olalonde 6mo ago
As a philosophical zombie, I have to disagree here.
tim333 6mo ago
But the debate isn't whether consciousness exists. It's largely whether it's the product of normal neurons doing their thing or something more. Also the details of how it works of course.
- jffhn 6mo ago
  It cannot be just a product of the body, else it could not have effect on the body and our tongues could not be moving speaking about it.
  - cameldrv 6mo ago
    Chalmers’ claim is that the fact that it really exists and the fact that we can talk about it are unrelated and basically a coincidence, which I think is completely absurd… If you really believe in qualia IMO you have to bite the bullet and say that there must be physics that we don’t yet understand.
    - DubiousPusher 6mo ago
      We're approaching the definition of magic here aren't we. And I think this is what really divides this discussion. There is one set of people who insist that things must be explainable. And if something is explainable, it yields to science and is no longer magic. On the other side, you have people who insist that there are things which do not yield to science. So whether they admit it or not, they insist upon the existence of magic. In fact, the definition of magic might as well be, that which does not yield to explanation. The only question once you believe in magic is, what alternative epistemology do you accept? Scripture? Tradition? Divine revelation?
      - dpark 6mo ago
        > On the other side, you have people who insist that there are things which do not yield to science. So whether they admit it or not, they insist upon the existence of magic. This is a really valuable framing for this sort of conversation.
      - cameldrv 6mo ago
        Not at all. Saying that science does not yet explain some observed phenomenon is precisely how one starts to make scientific progress. Saying that qualia don’t exist because they are “magical” is like someone telling you lightning doesn’t exist before the understanding of electromagnetism.
ordu 6mo ago
Your arguments reminds me of logical loop. A implies B, B implies A. It doesn't mean that A and B are true. You have to be conscious to experience and to be conscious means to to experience. Maybe we are not conscious after all and do not experience? Maybe it is just a lie we are telling ourselves?
n4r9 6mo ago
I think the article has an interesting argument here. We also "experience" the sun going up and down in the sky. But actually this is an illusion of our vantage point on a spinning rock.
- jffhn 6mo ago
  We don't experience the sun going up and down, we experience its direction changing relative to the horizontal plane, and it is not an illusion: it matches planetary motion. The mistake arises when interpreting the raw experience. Sensations don't lie. Another example: Metal feels colder than plastic, but the sensation is right again: you are loosing more heat when touching metal.
  - DubiousPusher 6mo ago
    But the sensation in a sense is a lie. Cold strictly speaking isn't real. And for much of human existence we spoke of it as if it was a substance due exactly to this specific sensatation.
  - n4r9 5mo ago
    Even so, the "quality" of an experience could be regarded as an interpretation of sensations.
    - n4r9 5mo ago
      And to add to this, sensations do lie. We hear voices that aren't there, things feel hot when they're cold, we feel stationary when we're hurtling around the sun at high speed. Our bodies are not built to sense the truth of the world, only to survive in it. Sometimes those things coincide, sometimes not.
phkahler 6mo ago
>> The main reason we believe consciousness exists is because we all experience it. What about the NPC meme? LLMs behave like NPCs, and some people seem no more conscious than an NPC (I didn't invent that meme).
- jfyi 6mo ago
  NPC meme? No sir, we are a little more high brow around here. Around these parts we talk about p-zombies and solipsism! I'll bite though, do NPCs behave as if they believe they are conscious? If so, how do you know you aren't one of them?
- capitol_ 6mo ago
  Isn't that just an insult people throw around? Or maybe some psychopath that tries to justify their worldview. I have never had an conversation with someone who seems like an NPC.
kevin42 6mo ago
“We experience it, therefore it exists” proves less than it seems. It proves there is an experience to explain. It does not prove that consciousness is what it appears to be from the inside. A mirage is still seen, but the thing it seems to show is not really there. Consciousness might be real in that same limited sense, while our folk model of it could be deeply wrong.
- DubiousPusher 6mo ago
  Sleep paralysis entered the chat
- fnordlord 6mo ago
  This is a really good point and something that I think is important to clarify at the very start of the discussion. In that way, I'm less interested in explaining consciousness than explaining experience. When I read this article, I felt like the author was only making his points by convoluting the two. By the end, I felt like, for an expert on the subject, I don't think he actually groks the fundamental point.

As a philosophical zombie, I have to disagree here.

But the debate isn't whether consciousness exists. It's largely whether it's the product of normal neurons doing their thing or something more. Also the details of how it works of course.

jffhn 6mo ago
It cannot be just a product of the body, else it could not have effect on the body and our tongues could not be moving speaking about it.
- cameldrv 6mo ago
  Chalmers’ claim is that the fact that it really exists and the fact that we can talk about it are unrelated and basically a coincidence, which I think is completely absurd… If you really believe in qualia IMO you have to bite the bullet and say that there must be physics that we don’t yet understand.
  - DubiousPusher 6mo ago
    We're approaching the definition of magic here aren't we. And I think this is what really divides this discussion. There is one set of people who insist that things must be explainable. And if something is explainable, it yields to science and is no longer magic. On the other side, you have people who insist that there are things which do not yield to science. So whether they admit it or not, they insist upon the existence of magic. In fact, the definition of magic might as well be, that which does not yield to explanation. The only question once you believe in magic is, what alternative epistemology do you accept? Scripture? Tradition? Divine revelation?
    - dpark 6mo ago
      > On the other side, you have people who insist that there are things which do not yield to science. So whether they admit it or not, they insist upon the existence of magic. This is a really valuable framing for this sort of conversation.
    - cameldrv 6mo ago
      Not at all. Saying that science does not yet explain some observed phenomenon is precisely how one starts to make scientific progress. Saying that qualia don’t exist because they are “magical” is like someone telling you lightning doesn’t exist before the understanding of electromagnetism.

ordu 6mo ago

Your arguments reminds me of logical loop. A implies B, B implies A. It doesn't mean that A and B are true. You have to be conscious to experience and to be conscious means to to experience. Maybe we are not conscious after all and do not experience? Maybe it is just a lie we are telling ourselves?

n4r9 6mo ago

I think the article has an interesting argument here. We also "experience" the sun going up and down in the sky. But actually this is an illusion of our vantage point on a spinning rock.

jffhn 6mo ago
We don't experience the sun going up and down, we experience its direction changing relative to the horizontal plane, and it is not an illusion: it matches planetary motion. The mistake arises when interpreting the raw experience. Sensations don't lie. Another example: Metal feels colder than plastic, but the sensation is right again: you are loosing more heat when touching metal.
- DubiousPusher 6mo ago
  But the sensation in a sense is a lie. Cold strictly speaking isn't real. And for much of human existence we spoke of it as if it was a substance due exactly to this specific sensatation.
- n4r9 5mo ago
  Even so, the "quality" of an experience could be regarded as an interpretation of sensations.
  - n4r9 5mo ago
    And to add to this, sensations do lie. We hear voices that aren't there, things feel hot when they're cold, we feel stationary when we're hurtling around the sun at high speed. Our bodies are not built to sense the truth of the world, only to survive in it. Sometimes those things coincide, sometimes not.

phkahler 6mo ago

>> The main reason we believe consciousness exists is because we all experience it. What about the NPC meme? LLMs behave like NPCs, and some people seem no more conscious than an NPC (I didn't invent that meme).

jfyi 6mo ago
NPC meme? No sir, we are a little more high brow around here. Around these parts we talk about p-zombies and solipsism! I'll bite though, do NPCs behave as if they believe they are conscious? If so, how do you know you aren't one of them?
capitol_ 6mo ago
Isn't that just an insult people throw around? Or maybe some psychopath that tries to justify their worldview. I have never had an conversation with someone who seems like an NPC.

kevin42 6mo ago

“We experience it, therefore it exists” proves less than it seems. It proves there is an experience to explain. It does not prove that consciousness is what it appears to be from the inside. A mirage is still seen, but the thing it seems to show is not really there. Consciousness might be real in that same limited sense, while our folk model of it could be deeply wrong.

DubiousPusher 6mo ago
Sleep paralysis entered the chat
fnordlord 6mo ago
This is a really good point and something that I think is important to clarify at the very start of the discussion. In that way, I'm less interested in explaining consciousness than explaining experience. When I read this article, I felt like the author was only making his points by convoluting the two. By the end, I felt like, for an expert on the subject, I don't think he actually groks the fundamental point.