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Yet another way in which the US has bungled an overseas conflict. The best time to have strongly supported Ukraine was in the past couple of years leading up to

by Zigurd 5mo ago

Yet another way in which the US has bungled an overseas conflict. The best time to have strongly supported Ukraine was in the past couple of years leading up to this outcome. Now, if Trump somehow can stop gazing lovingly into Putin's eyes, it will be seen as getting on the bandwagon.

arvid-lind 5mo ago
He admires autocrats and aspires to be one, in addition to aligning the US with Russian interests. You think he will get on the Ukraine/NATO bandwagon?
- Zigurd 5mo ago
  Maybe. Probably late. Transparently lacking credibility. But he'll make a loud noise about it.
SanjayMehta 5mo ago
Which conflict has the US won in the last 25 years? Strike that: 50 years? There's a strong case that they didn't even defeat the nazis, that was done by the Soviets.
- HatchedLake721 5mo ago
  [dead]
- mathgeek 5mo ago
  > There's a strong case that they didn't even defeat the nazis, that was done by the Soviets. With Lend-Lease equipment. No matter what way you cut it, multiple nations defeated the Nazis together.
  - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
    30% of trucks and transport 8% of the tanks 0% of the casualties: 27 million
    - mathgeek 5mo ago
      Can you elaborate on what you mean, or did you just want to state those numbers? No one is arguing that the US fought on the Eastern Front.
      - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
        The Marshall plan furnished 30% of the transport etc. By the time the western allies reached Berlin the Soviets had already wrecked the Germans. No one is arguing the US fought on the eastern front, the argument is over who suffered the most. Don't take my word for it, read "When Titans Clashed" by Glantz and House.
        mathgeek 5mo ago
        Nope, you moved the goalpost here from “who defeated the Nazis”. I am fine with your new claim of who suffered the most.
        SanjayMehta 5mo ago
        I did no such thing. The Soviets defeated the nazis and suffered the most. The US and their vassals merely made you believe their propaganda: Patton the movie et al. Are you British? They play word games.
- AnimalMuppet 5mo ago
  What conflicts has the US won? Panama. Grenada. Kosovo. Iraq. The latter was a serious regional power, not a lightweight. The Soviet Union defeated the Nazis with US materiel. Without that, they probably don't get it done. And even if what you said were true, the US still should have supported Ukraine more than it did, and should do so now.
  - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
    Oh please. That's like saying a 500 pound gorilla beat the pulp out of a bunch of chihuahuas. The US can't subdue Iran, leave alone Russia. Or China.
    - AnimalMuppet 5mo ago
      Iraq wasn't a chihuahua. But the original question was whether the US should be supporting Ukraine. You keep wanting to make this about the US going head-to-head against Russia or China, but that's not actually the subject under discussion here.
      - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
        Are the Houthis chihuahuas? https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/us-loses-51st-mq9-drone-yemen https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/us-loses-51st-mq9-...
      - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
        If Russia had treated The Ukraine the way the US and its vassals treated Yugoslavia and Iraq - knocking power and water utilities in week one, we would be having a very different discussion indeed. This isn't about the US against Russia/China. This is about the US and its vassals against the civilised world.
squidbeak 5mo ago
This was one of the rare cases it would have been easier and more in character if the US had just done the right thing. But no. First Biden's timidity and dithering over arms, which looks ridiculous today and led to so much needless difficulty and suffering for Ukraine. And then Trump, quite clearly favouring Putin and (obscenely) shaking down Ukraine at its most vulnerable point with the 'mineral deal'. It's hard to imagine any earlier US administration not backing Ukraine to the hilt - pouring in advanced arms, strangling Russia with much harder sanctions, maybe even patrolling the skies of western Ukraine. The chance to take down the worst sort of nationalist tyrant, and one of the world's nastiest troublemakers? And one of the USA's longest standing enemy countries to boot? What President before these last two wouldn't have jumped at it?
- mamonster 5mo ago
  >What President before these last two wouldn't have jumped at it? This ignores/forgets the fact that Biden had the Ukraine crisis directly after Covid ending so he basically couldn't actually go all in on the conflict. >It's hard to imagine any earlier US administration not backing Ukraine to the hilt Earlier administrations were operating in a much better economic environment and had a much higher international standing. Don't forget that outside of Europe US standing was dropping already before Trump 2.
- TiredOfLife 5mo ago
  > It's hard to imagine any earlier US administration not backing Ukraine to the hilt War started in 2014. Obama did nothing.
  - red-iron-pine 5mo ago
    [dead]

by Zigurd 5mo ago

arvid-lind 5mo ago

He admires autocrats and aspires to be one, in addition to aligning the US with Russian interests. You think he will get on the Ukraine/NATO bandwagon?

Zigurd 5mo ago
Maybe. Probably late. Transparently lacking credibility. But he'll make a loud noise about it.

SanjayMehta 5mo ago

Which conflict has the US won in the last 25 years? Strike that: 50 years? There's a strong case that they didn't even defeat the nazis, that was done by the Soviets.

HatchedLake721 5mo ago
[dead]
mathgeek 5mo ago
> There's a strong case that they didn't even defeat the nazis, that was done by the Soviets. With Lend-Lease equipment. No matter what way you cut it, multiple nations defeated the Nazis together.
- SanjayMehta 5mo ago
  30% of trucks and transport 8% of the tanks 0% of the casualties: 27 million
  - mathgeek 5mo ago
    Can you elaborate on what you mean, or did you just want to state those numbers? No one is arguing that the US fought on the Eastern Front.
    - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
      The Marshall plan furnished 30% of the transport etc. By the time the western allies reached Berlin the Soviets had already wrecked the Germans. No one is arguing the US fought on the eastern front, the argument is over who suffered the most. Don't take my word for it, read "When Titans Clashed" by Glantz and House.
      - mathgeek 5mo ago
        Nope, you moved the goalpost here from “who defeated the Nazis”. I am fine with your new claim of who suffered the most.
        SanjayMehta 5mo ago
        I did no such thing. The Soviets defeated the nazis and suffered the most. The US and their vassals merely made you believe their propaganda: Patton the movie et al. Are you British? They play word games.
AnimalMuppet 5mo ago
What conflicts has the US won? Panama. Grenada. Kosovo. Iraq. The latter was a serious regional power, not a lightweight. The Soviet Union defeated the Nazis with US materiel. Without that, they probably don't get it done. And even if what you said were true, the US still should have supported Ukraine more than it did, and should do so now.
- SanjayMehta 5mo ago
  Oh please. That's like saying a 500 pound gorilla beat the pulp out of a bunch of chihuahuas. The US can't subdue Iran, leave alone Russia. Or China.
  - AnimalMuppet 5mo ago
    Iraq wasn't a chihuahua. But the original question was whether the US should be supporting Ukraine. You keep wanting to make this about the US going head-to-head against Russia or China, but that's not actually the subject under discussion here.
    - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
      Are the Houthis chihuahuas? https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/us-loses-51st-mq9-drone-yemen https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/us-loses-51st-mq9-...
    - SanjayMehta 5mo ago
      If Russia had treated The Ukraine the way the US and its vassals treated Yugoslavia and Iraq - knocking power and water utilities in week one, we would be having a very different discussion indeed. This isn't about the US against Russia/China. This is about the US and its vassals against the civilised world.

squidbeak 5mo ago

This was one of the rare cases it would have been easier and more in character if the US had just done the right thing. But no. First Biden's timidity and dithering over arms, which looks ridiculous today and led to so much needless difficulty and suffering for Ukraine. And then Trump, quite clearly favouring Putin and (obscenely) shaking down Ukraine at its most vulnerable point with the 'mineral deal'. It's hard to imagine any earlier US administration not backing Ukraine to the hilt - pouring in advanced arms, strangling Russia with much harder sanctions, maybe even patrolling the skies of western Ukraine. The chance to take down the worst sort of nationalist tyrant, and one of the world's nastiest troublemakers? And one of the USA's longest standing enemy countries to boot? What President before these last two wouldn't have jumped at it?

mamonster 5mo ago
>What President before these last two wouldn't have jumped at it? This ignores/forgets the fact that Biden had the Ukraine crisis directly after Covid ending so he basically couldn't actually go all in on the conflict. >It's hard to imagine any earlier US administration not backing Ukraine to the hilt Earlier administrations were operating in a much better economic environment and had a much higher international standing. Don't forget that outside of Europe US standing was dropping already before Trump 2.
TiredOfLife 5mo ago
> It's hard to imagine any earlier US administration not backing Ukraine to the hilt War started in 2014. Obama did nothing.
- red-iron-pine 5mo ago
  [dead]